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Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Syl's random ramblings.
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Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri May 27, 2011 3:46 pm

When Blizz 1st announced that 10s and 25s where going to share lockouts there was a cry that this would kill the 25 man guild. When they released the loot tables and we learned that bosses dropped the same gear on 10 and 25 there was a cry that blizz was trying to kill off 25 man raiding like they did with 40 mans. I ask you this my readers. What if the do? What if, be it 4.3 or 5.0 they do away with all 25 man content? For those in 10 man guilds this sin't that big of a deal i guess but I myself still raid 25s.

My personal feeling is :shock: followed by :?: followed by :evil: and then :(
Don't get me wrong I love the 10 man environment. Kara and original ZA still hold special places with me. But 10 man always felt like I was just doing a Heroic dungeon in a guild group. ZA wasn't progression it was a bear run. We didn't farm bosses to be able to kill the next. They just felt like big dungeons. But lets look at a raid that offered 10 and 25. Naxx2.0. Same bosses but the 25 man loot was better. It was still the same for me. 25 guildies online zoned in and ready to go. Vent hoping with traffic. This was an epic event. The 10 mans felt more like hey I am bored anyone not run 10naxx this week? OK lets go do it real quick. I felt the same as content kept coming out. When Cata dropped and bosses started sharing loot tables I ran some guild 10 man's until we had enough people geard for 25 man raiding. Once again I felt like I was in a baby version of BoT. Here I was with 9 guildies and we where getting gear and figureing out strats to pass on to others but 25 mans where right around the conor if only we where big and powerful enough. My guild is the top 25 man guild on my server. As for as I can tell we have 1 other guild to compete with. Dosnt make being top cat feel as good.

I am not saying that 25 mans are going away. Just asking you......what if they did?
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Re: Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby shinryu » Fri May 27, 2011 4:40 pm

In all honesty? I've always hated 25mans personally, not only do you have to deal with a lot more incompetent people, but then there's lag issues if you don't have a moderate gaming rig, more time inbetween pulls because people like to afk, things of the sort. I mean, I understand in theory a well oiled 25man could be great, but I still don't like it...it just feels too informal to me. Which is why I like 10mans, you get to know people on a personal level, there's just as much expectation to perform well and just as great margin of error on 10mans for heroics (especially with only 1 brez available), that sort of stuff. In a way, each person is more valuable than say the extra 15 or so dps that can die and no one will give a crap if others are good enough to compensate for and 2-3 more healers.

Now what I do hate is how they are on the same lockout; I did enjoy being able to do my main raiding with the 10man group and then a couple of bosses as a bigger 25man group with the...less talented guildies and friends/pugs. Though I guess that's mainly for the chance at loot moreso, I definitely don't need the vp and again, I really don't like putting up with the extra lag or dumb people in a 25man setting.

Now what I'd like to see is like maybe a 15man or so, that could be something new; it's more or less inbetween 10 and 25, and I'm sure you could come up with some relatively creative mechanics without having all the extra lag, plus it's a lot easier to find 5 competent people rather than 15 extra competent people. But yeah, those are my thoughts on the subject pretty much...I know I certainly wouldn't bemoan any death of 25mans, as they already killed off the practical side that I put up with them in the first place, which was differing lockouts for more loot/badges/points.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri May 27, 2011 4:55 pm

Good points Shin. Sylv's Snippets rarely brings forth a topic that has a right or wrong answer. This is just you me and 327 of our dear friends debating. I would love to hear from others. Do most agree with Shin? Would the absolute end of 25s mean anything to you?
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Re: Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby Qbear » Fri May 27, 2011 5:06 pm

Blah 25m 4 lyfe!!! but seriously though if a bracket was going to get taken out of the game it would be 25m. Theres just so much more you can do with 10mans seeing as its so much either to put together and manage.

All I know is if such a thing were to happen I myself am glad guild wars 2 is suppose to come at the end of the month. Not sure if anyone has checked it out but hooooooly crap it looks like good things. I remember crap talkin both aion and rift when it was being developed based on what I saw but Guild Wars 2 really, really just looks that good. Hows joining my guild over there?!

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Re: Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby shinryu » Fri May 27, 2011 9:04 pm

I've been thinking of trying out SWTOR when it comes out...shame that's not for about another year >.>

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Re: Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby Antioch » Sat May 28, 2011 7:04 am

I'm an officer/raid leader of a 25 man guild on our relatively poor server. I knew the day i heard about the 10 and 25 man shared lock out that trouble was brewing.
While our server has never had the biggest pool of players we had, prior to Cata, managed to keep a strong 25 man guild running. Finishing 5th on both Alli and Horde in progression with a few server firsts thrown in for good measure.
We started off Cata with 40+ people turning up every night but we finally reached the point 2 weeks ago where we now have more casual players than raiders and last week we started running 10 man heroics because we just didnt have enough for 25.
I personally have no idea why blizzard did what they did if it wasn't to slowly get rid of 25 mans. I share sentiment with both Qbear and Shin though, on one hand i love 25 mans. It feels much more epic in scope and you feel like you have accomplished much more when you finally manage to down that boss that you wiped for weeks on. But in 10 man things are so much simpler, first off you wouldn't of spent all those weeks wiping on that boss if it had been 10 man. As Shin pointed out 10 mans are much more social than 25's. Although the accomplishment might not be the same as with 25 man, every boss you down brings those 10 players that much closer to each other (Group Hug!) and you will certainly get through content that much faster as you have a smaller group where you can more easily discover the mistakes that are happening and fix them.
I'm in a situation now where due to our guuild and its level of progression i would quite happily settle for 10 mans in the absence of no 25 or pointless 25 man normal kills. Unfortunately there lies the problem, i would feel like i was settling for something but at the end of the day for a player like me if your not progressing then there is very little point.
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Re: Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby Darkrealm » Sun May 29, 2011 10:02 pm

My view is that as WoW matures, so does the player base. This will naturally result 10 mans becoming the standard (if it isn’t already) and 25 man raids going the way of the dodo.
All the people who I knew from BC, including myself, who still play WoW, play far less than before. Marriage, kids, social life etc makes playing WoW a more casual affair. As this happens the number of hard core raiders, willing to put up with the various hassles of 25 man raiding diminishes.

Also, I disagree with the sentiment that 10 mans does not feel like proper raiding. Sure it felt that way in BC with Kara and ZA, but BWD and BoT 10 man are in no way like those raids, at least to the casual gamer. Compare Nef, Chogall and Al Akir to Prince and ... OK I forgot the name of the end boss in ZA (BC). Defeating Prince was a matter of gear, there was nothing scary, just tank and spank.

Another factor, which it looks like Blizzard has acknowledged, is that the opening tier of raiding in cata was fairly hard core. If your guild is bashing its face against 10 man raids right from the get go you will not have the time or energy to do 25 mans once you feel geared enough. Thinking back to BC, the whole purpose of 10 mans was to gear for 25 mans. Now the whole point of 10 man is to gear for the next tier or hard modes.

As far as how I feel about this myself, I would feel sad if 25 man raiding disappears, even though it will not affect me directly. Indirectly though, who knows? I get worried when Blizzard starts cutting corners, in the name of efficiency (of course). If they don’t feel the need to provide elite content it will affect the quality of content at every level. The same way that expensive cars and computers directly benefit cheaper cars/computers as the technology used in the former becomes standard.

This is what worries me most of all about the direction of WoW, that it’s becoming half arsed.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets #5 No more 25s

Postby Cuer » Mon May 30, 2011 3:38 pm

Interesting discussion here. It's funny how so many of the same sentiments come back up, that were first brought up when the shift was made from 40-player to 25-player raids.

It's pretty clear that 25-player will continue to shrink as a percentage of overall raiding. For many of the people who claimed they wanted a better or more epic raiding experience, once the higher quality loot wasn't available in 25-player raids, that suddenly wasn't the case for them.

Blizzard has little incentive to remove 25-player raids anytime soon. They always design a raid in 10-player normal mode first, and then add on the 25-player and heroic modes after it's been set up. So not having 25-player mode wouldn't make the fights simpler. There is a slight chance that removing 25-player mode could make for more interesting 10-player fights, since they wouldn't have to be designed around filling 15 more players in the limited space available around a boss. But overall, having 25-player modes allows more of the "big epic feel" of raiding to continue, even if most players don't care to experience it.

I tend to think the 10-player raid makes for a more epic raiding experience for each player, even as it is a less epic experience for the group. Each player has greater responsibility in 10-player mode; if you lose one player there, a wipe is far more likely than losing a random person in a 25-player boss fight. Combined with the increased social cohesion mentioned above, you can make the case that 10-player raiding is on an individual level more epic. But that is counterbalanced by the fact that the logistics of running a 25-player raid are so much greater, so getting the first kill of a boss there gives a greater sense of overcoming the odds.

As long as Blizzard doesn't feel constrained in the boss fights they can design, by having both 10 and 25-player modes available, it certainly is a benefit to the game to have them both around.

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