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SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

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SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:30 pm

This topic is for discussing Feral DPS tactics, monk tactics and/or general raid strategies for the Paragons of the Klaxxi encounter.

Please feel free to post tips, tricks, videos or ask questions. I will do my best to keep the top post updated with information as it arrives.

When discussing, please mention raid size (10/25) and difficulty (normal/heroic).

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Karlzone » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:38 am

[10 Normal]
The wind guy charge. Uhm
Two weeks ago when I did this, the wind guy would just charge through melee and hit me.
I did it this week as well and it didn't happen.

Was there a hotfix that went into place? Or is there something else you can do to avoid getting killed by the charge?

For the fight itself:
Displacer beast is really nice if you find yourself in a bad spot (that will happen, be wary of cleaves and shit).
Charge is good for it's snaring ability for the bloods and the fact that it does not cost a gcd (so you can start attacking your low hp prio target immediately).
I was personally going with Displacer Beast.

Soul Swap is generally a dps increase, but I found bubble to be better because of the sheer amount of shit melee take.

Aggixx talked about the Scorpion buff being effected by Savage Roar and NV? Could someone confirm this?

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:44 am

Something like 1-2 seconds after Ka'roz charges, players standing in the path he passed through get stunned. Avoid this by moving out of his path after each charge.

The scorpion buff is indeed affected by savage roar and NV. NV also transfers healing from scorpion attacks. We still found it better to give the buff to a tank (due to vengeance scaling), but feral druid is definitely one of the best non-tank choices.

(I recorded my 25-heroic kill and posted it here, if anyone's interested.)

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Alpheus » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:18 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Something like 1-2 seconds after Ka'roz charges, players standing in the path he passed through get stunned. Avoid this by moving out of his path after each charge.

The scorpion buff is indeed affected by savage roar and NV. NV also transfers healing from scorpion attacks. We still found it better to give the buff to a tank (due to vengeance scaling), but feral druid is definitely one of the best non-tank choices.

(I recorded my 25-heroic kill and posted it here, if anyone's interested.)


Aren't the boss corpses linked to a certain class/spec combo? Can both tanks and dps take the scorp?
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Tremnen » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Alpheus wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:Something like 1-2 seconds after Ka'roz charges, players standing in the path he passed through get stunned. Avoid this by moving out of his path after each charge.

The scorpion buff is indeed affected by savage roar and NV. NV also transfers healing from scorpion attacks. We still found it better to give the buff to a tank (due to vengeance scaling), but feral druid is definitely one of the best non-tank choices.

(I recorded my 25-heroic kill and posted it here, if anyone's interested.)


Aren't the boss corpses linked to a certain class/spec combo? Can both tanks and dps take the scorp?


I think scorpion is one of the buffs without a restriction.

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Zstriker » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:22 am

Karlzone wrote:[10 Normal]

Aggixx talked about the Scorpion buff being effected by Savage Roar and NV? Could someone confirm this?


it is huge increase, NV is must for it and you should be person to take it, as it healing mitigate dmg you take and heal raid also for huge amounts
but it depends on tactic, if you killing Alchemist first take NV pop it, SR and spam scorpion's buttons,
howerver most raids leave him to be killed last as tank mitigate his parasite ability and boss won't make any harm...

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Yriss » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:53 am

just keep at least 3cp just before use this buff, for a 30+sec SR
i made a simple macro with NV, both buffs are 30sec

/Cast Nature's Vigil
/click ExtraActionButton1

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby mekell » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:43 am

Anyone ever seen an issue where you couldnt click on the corpse to get the buff? i was assigned scorpion and for the life of me could not get it. A rogue friend could. When i moved the mouse icon over the corpse, it was just the regular pointer icon.

Has anyone else had this trouble?
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Alpheus » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:09 am

mekell wrote:Anyone ever seen an issue where you couldnt click on the corpse to get the buff? i was assigned scorpion and for the life of me could not get it. A rogue friend could. When i moved the mouse icon over the corpse, it was just the regular pointer icon.

Has anyone else had this trouble?


You cannot take a buff if

a) someone already has the same (even from a flex re-kill)
b) you already have a buff
c) the buff is not meant for your role (ie. picking up disector as tank)
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Vami » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:18 am

Alpheus wrote:
mekell wrote:Anyone ever seen an issue where you couldnt click on the corpse to get the buff? i was assigned scorpion and for the life of me could not get it. A rogue friend could. When i moved the mouse icon over the corpse, it was just the regular pointer icon.

Has anyone else had this trouble?


You cannot take a buff if

a) someone already has the same (even from a flex re-kill)
b) you already have a buff
c) the buff is not meant for your role (ie. picking up disector as tank)


Otherwise correct but you can pick up Dissector's buff as a tank and it is actually the best choice, too. Tanks with vengeance will top your dps by far with this thing (at least our monk tank does).

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby mekell » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:36 am

It was available to (but not taken by) my rogue guildmate. No one else had clicked it. This is the first boss of the set we are killing, so i shouldnt have any other buff...My guess is a UI bug. We will find out tonite when we go back. Appreciate the feedback all.
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Alpheus » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:40 am

mekell wrote:It was available to (but not taken by) my rogue guildmate. No one else had clicked it. This is the first boss of the set we are killing, so i shouldnt have any other buff...My guess is a UI bug. We will find out tonite when we go back. Appreciate the feedback all.


You could always just post logs and we could write an expression to see who picked up what.
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby mekell » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:24 pm

Thanks Alph. I will take logs tonite and post if i am still having issues.
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby mekell » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:31 am

Ok so i was able to pick up the buff tonite, however i couldnt seem to pick it up in cat form. Could just be a fluke, but i started shifting out of cat form to get the gear icon so i could pick it up. Maybe just a bunch of crap standing on top of it? i'm not sure.
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Yriss » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:22 pm

mekell wrote:Anyone ever seen an issue where you couldnt click on the corpse to get the buff? i was assigned scorpion and for the life of me could not get it. A rogue friend could. When i moved the mouse icon over the corpse, it was just the regular pointer icon.

Has anyone else had this trouble?


Don't use burning seeds or any Halloween "buff". I had this issue too when i used burning seed (firecat <3 ), and i heard some people had this problem with a halloween buff on them ...
But perhaps you have another problem ? Not able to click on cat form only ?

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby mekell » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:41 am

I had a burning seed on. Will give that a shot when we reclear.
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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Tremnen » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:09 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Something like 1-2 seconds after Ka'roz charges, players standing in the path he passed through get stunned. Avoid this by moving out of his path after each charge.

The scorpion buff is indeed affected by savage roar and NV. NV also transfers healing from scorpion attacks. We still found it better to give the buff to a tank (due to vengeance scaling), but feral druid is definitely one of the best non-tank choices.

(I recorded my 25-heroic kill and posted it here, if anyone's interested.)



We were talking about feral Vengeance DPS last week think it would be more viable to HotW Vengeance tank this add in 25 man or just use Savage Roar + NV?
Last edited by Tremnen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:49 pm

It's pretty dangerous, at least on heroic. To get vengeance you need to be tanking and in scorpion form you can't use any defensive abilities. Maybe you could hit heart of the wild/survival instincts/might of ursoc/barkskin in advance, taunt something, go into scorpion form, and then have a tank taunt off you 10 seconds later -- but it's very likely you'd just get aggro back.

Anyway, some accounting.
  • Savage Roar is +40% physical damage
  • NV is +12% damage
  • HotW passive is +7% damage (~6% from attack power, ~1% from crit) for pure AP-scaling abilities (as opposed to weapon damage abilities) with low base damage. I assume scorpion abilities have low base damage.
  • HotW Bear form (without vengeance) is
    • +50% damage from attack power (for later reference, average attack power before vengeance is ~127k here, or ~115k before 10% buff)
    • Roughly (1+.8*3/4+1/4)/(1+.57*3/4+.38*1/4) = +22% physical damage from crit (accounting for ~25% re-origination uptime)
    • Roughly (1+.35*3/4+1/4)/(1+.26*3/4+.08*1/4) = +24% spell damage from crit

So for non-HotW scorpions, you lose roughly 1-1.07/1.12 = 4.5% damage; and for HotW scorpions without vengeance, you gain roughly 1.07*1.5*1.22/1.4/1.12-1 = 25% physical damage and 1.07*1.5*1.24/1.12-1 = 78% spell damage.

So without vengeance it's already a damage gain. With vengeance, damage would be proportional to roughly

1 + vengeance/115k

(since 115k was the average base attack power). Unfortunately, I'm actually not sure what kind of vengeance you get (even though I recently tanked heroic, I didn't pay much attention to that).

Of course, you're giving up the NV healing to do this. You could just get the best of both worlds and tank the fight as guardian with NV. I recently did this and our healers complained that progression would have been so much easier if we'd done this during progression.

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Tremnen » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:59 pm

Do you know if the 100K ticking dot gives vengeance?

I'd love to tank it but not 100% our Raid leadership wants it. Both of our warrior tanks do really well. When tanking Xaril as a scorpion do you not have to worry about bloody explosion?

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:29 pm

Did you 3 tank when you went bear, or were you just the off tank?

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:37 pm

Don't know what gives vengeance since I didn't record this time. I can try to check next week, but it might be hard to tell.

Funny thing, I didn't even know Bloody Explosion was an ability on this fight. Considering Xaril casts Caustic Blood every 10 seconds and we kill him in about 60 seconds, it might as well not exist for us -- but even if you leave him up, he can't apply more than 3 stacks during scorpion.

And yeah, I wouldn't suggest changing tank if you're fine with what you have. Just something to consider for heroic. Overall damage aside (and I did ~930k overall DPS), a big advantage of having the tank do scorpion is the ability to burst down certain targets extremely quickly. We normally kill Xaril before he can cast a second catalyst, for example. And if you're having a tank take scorpion, guardian is by far the safest spec (where other tank specs lose mitigation, guardian effectively gains mitigation due to NV).

Tinderhoof wrote:Did you 3 tank when you went bear, or were you just the off tank?

Don't know that main vs off means much on this fight, but I took the "main" tank's role since he was away.

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:01 pm

I usually call "off tank" when a primary DPS steps into a tank spot. The old "Off Tank" and "Main Tank" rolls don't really exist anymore like they used to.

I only asked as we are focusing on that part of the fight now and debating weather to give the buff to a HotW boomkin in cat form.

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:40 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I only asked as we are focusing on that part of the fight now and debating weather to give the buff to a HotW boomkin in cat form.

Giving it to a ranged is risky because they could cause caustic amber to get thrown into melee. I don't think HotW overrides this, but even if it does, you only have HotW for every third scorpion.

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Tremnen » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:08 am

Stenhaldi wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:I only asked as we are focusing on that part of the fight now and debating weather to give the buff to a HotW boomkin in cat form.

Giving it to a ranged is risky because they could cause caustic amber to get thrown into melee. I don't think HotW overrides this, but even if it does, you only have HotW for every third scorpion.


This is no longer true as Hurl Amber as of the Hotfix should not target ranged players in scorpion form.

A bigger change for us since the fotfix is that we can now disregard aim altogether by using Hunter symbiosis. It drops the AIM and will not fire. this also is true for actual hunters and invisibile abilities and I believe spectral Guise from priests. Monks can solo it as well with Zen Med (But it will fire so get out the way! but if they get whirled why channeling they will die so its risky).

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Re: SoO - Paragons of the Klaxxi 13/14

Postby Helistar » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:00 am

Necroing at work :)

Good call about the Symbiosis, we're on HM Paragons and I tended to take Dispersion, which allows you to survive it (contrary to Divine Shield, which gets you one-shotted).

But I had another question: we start by burning down Skeer after the fake DPS on Rik'kal to divert the blood, but the combat opening is utter crap. I had decided to give a shot at the HM TED I got, but it just procs off ANYTHING, making it hard to start right. So I run RoR and AoC. I also slack on Rik'kal not to waste the RoR proc and open on Skeer full burst. Still, my damage is often crap and I'm out-dpsd by several people, most notably a (very good) rogue. I could not find any WoL on HM Paragons and Warcraftlogs seems to be bugged when it comes to browsing logs: what kind of total damage should I be striving for during that initial burst on Skeer? I'm consistently above 20M with wild oscillations if I can get RoR+AoC at the same time (sometimes AoC procs like 2 years after I start to melee), I wanted to get an idea if I'm in the right place.... I forgot: I run HotW+FoN, since I have a personal dislike for DoC....

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