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So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

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So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby shinryu » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:43 pm

Kinda radical...for simplicity's sake, links to each tier:

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Overall I dunno...even if their goal is to kill off cookie cutter builds, no matter what there will always be an "optimal" build, even with 6 meager talent points now. Some of the choices (as of now) are still very boring (I mean, wtf is up with some of them?), while some are fairly dynamic and interesting. Personally, I think rolling the bulk of talents into level up or buyable from trainers is a mistake, as to me, you're killing off creativity even further if you limit options. But yeah, we'll see, not even beta yet lol.

And for what it's worth, here's what I see the bulk of people getting:

1. Feline Swiftness (though I see PvP possibly picking up one of the other 2 instead. Not to mention this tier is boring for all other druid specs in terms of pve since 2 force a cat form change, in pvp they're good though)
2. Renewal (really any choice isn't wrong, this whole tier is pretty dead in terms of DPS, though I suppose picking up one of the other 2 would be more raid friendly. That being said, I'd prefer a nice self-heal just in case for myself)
3. Faerie Swarm (though depending on if Typhoon will truly be usable in Cat form, that could be a more fun option since Faerie Swarm is just Faerie Fire v2. Mass Entanglement is obviously aimed more at Boom/Resto, though in PvP this would probably be the best fun choice)
4. Wild Charge or Incarnation (I'm generally guessing Wild Charge will act with some benefit to kitty that's unlisted in the tooltip, probably like FC now, though if not Incarnation becomes the more obvious choice, makes you wonder if we'll have more stealth abilities. Unless Treants get a huge buff, it's pretty much worthless for any spec, even Boom just casts them on CD because they're there really, they make up such a weak bit of DPS atm that they're really pointless)
5. Honestly, everything here is crap, even compared to T2 talents, as 2 force a shift to Bear (with less than stellar effects, though Bear Hug is great for PvP). Ursol's Vortex is similarly unattractive, I can think of very few times you'd actually want to yank every enemy to you as a kitty; likely this will be the option to take though, as it does have (some) raid usage in grabbing loose adds and maybe preventing some from reaching the boss, ala Beth'tilac.
6. Honestly? This is crap tier #2, I don't see why they want to force people out of form so much, or did they forget how much of a pain in the ass it is for ferals and losing energy? Heart of the Wild will probably be the option to choose since it lets you go temp healer or tank if someone really sucks at their role and dies, with Disentanglement being a nice pvp option.

Oh, and Hero Bear is all but dead if anyone did that, they're officially splitting feral into 2 specs. So you might be able to do very little tanking since you can still shift to bear, but other than that, bear will now have its own dedicated spec, probably with whatever rolled in talents and level ups too. So likely no more crit immunity and the like.

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby Darkrealm » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:36 am

There is no point discussing what talents people will take atm as they will change without a doubt. Some tiers are of no interest to certain specs (I mean the first tier is only for cats...). There is no way this will stand.

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby shinryu » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:14 am

Darkrealm wrote:There is no point discussing what talents people will take atm as they will change without a doubt. Some tiers are of no interest to certain specs (I mean the first tier is only for cats...). There is no way this will stand.

I disagree, I find it fun to speculate up till release. Even if these talents don't stand, it still illustrates the general direction devs are going until something changes or comes up. If anything, the 6 talent point system seems to be here for sure, how does everyone feel about getting 1 mere point every 15 levels? Honestly makes you wonder why they're trying so hard to push new talent builds...do they really want to distance themselves from the trees they made so popular that it's a standard in about every mmorpg?

That being said, wonder what tomorrow's Q&A will bring up...

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby Cuer » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:08 am

This is definitely a huge change to game choices, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

One really big point that is worth mentioning is that you will be able to change talents as easily as glyphs; not in combat, but otherwise they can be changed quickly and easily. The devs explicitly mentioned changing talents between bosses in a raid. Presumably you won't be able to change mid-game in PVP arena or battlegrounds, but this will make it easy to set up talents when you are going into a PVP environment.

Under this system, respeccing is presumably just for changing which of the 3 (or 4 for druids!) specs you are going to use. All talent changes will be available to change on the fly.

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby Darkrealm » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:43 am

shinryu wrote:
Darkrealm wrote:There is no point discussing what talents people will take atm as they will change without a doubt. Some tiers are of no interest to certain specs (I mean the first tier is only for cats...). There is no way this will stand.

I disagree, I find it fun to speculate up till release. Even if these talents don't stand, it still illustrates the general direction devs are going until something changes or comes up. If anything, the 6 talent point system seems to be here for sure, how does everyone feel about getting 1 mere point every 15 levels? Honestly makes you wonder why they're trying so hard to push new talent builds...do they really want to distance themselves from the trees they made so popular that it's a standard in about every mmorpg?

That being said, wonder what tomorrow's Q&A will bring up...


It is fun to speculate, and good to discuss the design changes; I just meant that the actual talents listed will probably not remain as is so we shouldn't judge yet what people will being taking on each tier.

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:52 pm

Overall I dunno...even if their goal is to kill off cookie cutter builds, no matter what there will always be an "optimal" build, even with 6 meager talent points now. Some of the choices (as of now) are still very boring (I mean, wtf is up with some of them?), while some are fairly dynamic and interesting. Personally, I think rolling the bulk of talents into level up or buyable from trainers is a mistake, as to me, you're killing off creativity even further if you limit options. But yeah, we'll see, not even beta yet lol.

I have to disagree with your whole statment here. Looking at the above stratagy I really don't think there is going to be an "optimal" build. I think we may begin to see an optimal build for a specific encounter, or for a specific job in an encounter, but I don't see an overall one coming out of this. While I will say that I think the Druid talents presented seem to be the least completed of any of the other classes, they are still offering a LOT of untilty and potential for fun (IE not as boring as you think). With some of the complaints I have been seeing over the last 24 hours I think folks are coming at this like we still had the old talent trees. The most of new talents arn't suposed to provide our DPS boosts, they are there to allow us to perform different jobs then we may be used to in different ways. Try to remember that unlike the old talent trees, the new ones arn't just focused on end game dungons, pvp and raiding.

I can think of a number of uses for most of the talent points as is, and I don't see a cookie cutter pattern. Also we need to understand that comparing these talent points to current play styles and encounters is likely to be missing an importent part of the over all picture. The Dev's know what mechanics and encounters they want to create and are giving talent points to fit into that plan. Let me take you through what I think of each tier and potential uses.

1. Feline Swiftness (though I see PvP possibly picking up one of the other 2 instead. Not to mention this tier is boring for all other druid specs in terms of pve since 2 force a cat form change, in pvp they're good though)

I think of the 3 only Displacer Beast is a PVP talent. Don't focus on the first line of Tireless Pursuit but the over all picture. This is a free dash that requires only 1 GCD. That means Healers and Boomkins that need to kite something now just have to hit 1 button and it shifts them into cat for free. It also doesn't take away dash. So now we have a choice of running faster all the time (free boot enchant in caster, bear, boom...) or have a much faster burst speed.

2. Renewal (really any choice isn't wrong, this whole tier is pretty dead in terms of DPS, though I suppose picking up one of the other 2 would be more raid friendly. That being said, I'd prefer a nice self-heal just in case for myself)

Again don't focus on talents giving you more dps. It is not what they are there for any more. This tier gives a very interesting choice for ferals in a PVE Environment. We can have an instant 30% heal or we can cast rebirth or any heal on ourselves with out shifting forms. We have been asking for this for 2 expantions. I can't see how this is boring choice.

3. Faerie Swarm (though depending on if Typhoon will truly be usable in Cat form, that could be a more fun option since Faerie Swarm is just Faerie Fire v2. Mass Entanglement is obviously aimed more at Boom/Resto, though in PvP this would probably be the best fun choice)

Only one druid in the raid needs to take Faerie Swarm. While I doubt the slowing portion of the talent will work on bosses, this will take the place of Feral Agression for applying a 3 stack at once. Mass entanglment is likely more caster/pvp, but still can be useful if you are the only druid in a 10 man. Typhoon in forms is awesome. That is all.

4. Wild Charge or Incarnation (I'm generally guessing Wild Charge will act with some benefit to kitty that's unlisted in the tooltip, probably like FC now, though if not Incarnation becomes the more obvious choice, makes you wonder if we'll have more stealth abilities. Unless Treants get a huge buff, it's pretty much worthless for any spec, even Boom just casts them on CD because they're there really, they make up such a weak bit of DPS atm that they're really pointless)

Wild Charge as you guessed is likely not finished, but will likely be this expantions version of Stampeed. Incarnation also not finished yet, but as it stands now would give us access to Ravage (stealth only ablity). Because of Ravages very high energy cost (60) we couldn't spam it. It also gives us a second stealth in combat which is nice. If you listened to the description of the talents during the pannel you would have heard that Treants are not the current ones you see boomkins cast now. They will do different things depending on your spec, so until this one is finished don't be to down on it yet.

5. Honestly, everything here is crap, even compared to T2 talents, as 2 force a shift to Bear (with less than stellar effects, though Bear Hug is great for PvP). Ursol's Vortex is similarly unattractive, I can think of very few times you'd actually want to yank every enemy to you as a kitty; likely this will be the option to take though, as it does have (some) raid usage in grabbing loose adds and maybe preventing some from reaching the boss, ala Beth'tilac.

The vortex is a VERY powerful raid ablity. Because the ability does not actually taunt you can use to boost aoe damage with out danger to yourself, you save someone who is having to kite adds by giving them 15 yards of breathing room, you can yank melee dps off of your healer in PVP, use it as a tank for pulling casters into the clump during a challange run. While I don't know if this will work by launch, but it was suggested by another feral that you use Vortex + Typhoon to suck folks to you then knock em off a cliff in PVP. Demoralizing Roar is a great caster get out of jail free card for PVP or PVE. Less likely to be used for Ferals or Guardian's in PVE, but useful in PVP. The Bear Hug is going to be this expantions Nom Nom Nom. Everyone will love the name, and there is no way it will make it to launch. It's also kind of a fun ability. Don't forget you don't need to be a Guardian to take bear hug, anyone who needs to help stun something can take this.

6. Honestly? This is crap tier #2, I don't see why they want to force people out of form so much, or did they forget how much of a pain in the ass it is for ferals and losing energy? Heart of the Wild will probably be the option to choose since it lets you go temp healer or tank if someone really sucks at their role and dies, with Disentanglement being a nice pvp option.

You are making the assumption that we are going to lose energy while shifting like we do now. Back at the end of BC the devs were saying they wanted druids to be able to make use of our shifting as an assit. Up until now the only benefit was shifting out of roots. Everything else was an inconvinence. I see Heart of the Wild as a solution to encounters were melee have to sit on our hands while the boss is out of range. We will have a very high mana regen, and a decent spell power buff and be hit capped. I say better throwing that out then sitting doing nothing. Master Shapeshifter still needs fleshing out, but it could be interesting to weave in spells to agument our rotation. Disentanglement is great for farming and world/ranked PVP.

Oh, and Hero Bear is all but dead if anyone did that, they're officially splitting feral into 2 specs. So you might be able to do very little tanking since you can still shift to bear, but other than that, bear will now have its own dedicated spec, probably with whatever rolled in talents and level ups too. So likely no more crit immunity and the like.

I am not sure why you think Hero Bear is, but you didn't need crit immunity. It seems like you are thinking of the Hybrid tank spec which sacraficed dps to be able to tank. Hero Bear was stepping in as DPS when the Tank died to save a kill. I had 3 guild first kills which I was able to hold the boss after the tank died long enough to prevent a wipe. If you look at Heart of the Wild, it lets you do just that. Can you fathom how much armor a 95% boost is? Thats for 45 seconds. Unless they change something spells can't crit, so the armor would help reduce the pain of crits.

Now all of that being said every one of these is likely to change somewhat. However I like what I see for now as I can pick talents to do a job, not because they will give more overall dps. The fun part about being a druid for me has been the flexability. I mean really, "I am just 1 respec away from doing your job better then you." The sky isn't falling, and devs don't hate us.

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby shinryu » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:05 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I have to disagree with your whole statment here. Looking at the above stratagy I really don't think there is going to be an "optimal" build. I think we may begin to see an optimal build for a specific encounter, or for a specific job in an encounter, but I don't see an overall one coming out of this. While I will say that I think the Druid talents presented seem to be the least completed of any of the other classes, they are still offering a LOT of untilty and potential for fun (IE not as boring as you think). With some of the complaints I have been seeing over the last 24 hours I think folks are coming at this like we still had the old talent trees. The most of new talents arn't suposed to provide our DPS boosts, they are there to allow us to perform different jobs then we may be used to in different ways. Try to remember that unlike the old talent trees, the new ones arn't just focused on end game dungons, pvp and raiding.

I can think of a number of uses for most of the talent points as is, and I don't see a cookie cutter pattern. Also we need to understand that comparing these talent points to current play styles and encounters is likely to be missing an importent part of the over all picture. The Dev's know what mechanics and encounters they want to create and are giving talent points to fit into that plan. Let me take you through what I think of each tier and potential uses.


Looking back, even I disagree with my own statement on that somewhat now ironically lol; in retrospect, it seems like they're trying to push talent points to be more like glyphs it seems, and being able to swap out. Granted, that's a philosophy I disagree with as well, but that's another issue...in general, I dislike how they're pushing utility so much, but eh. We'll see...

I think of the 3 only Displacer Beast is a PVP talent. Don't focus on the first line of Tireless Pursuit but the over all picture. This is a free dash that requires only 1 GCD. That means Healers and Boomkins that need to kite something now just have to hit 1 button and it shifts them into cat for free. It also doesn't take away dash. So now we have a choice of running faster all the time (free boot enchant in caster, bear, boom...) or have a much faster burst speed.


I dunno, this is still assuming we get to keep Dash (which we don't know for sure yet), but you're right that if we do keep Dash, having 2 dashes is pretty fun. Though there would have to be a fairly funky mechanic if a healer or boom has to kite something in pve, considering other classes kite far better than us, but I see your point.

Again don't focus on talents giving you more dps. It is not what they are there for any more. This tier gives a very interesting choice for ferals in a PVE Environment. We can have an instant 30% heal or we can cast rebirth or any heal on ourselves with out shifting forms. We have been asking for this for 2 expantions. I can't see how this is boring choice.


Ok, the self healing is nice, but honestly in pve, you shouldn't be healing yourself that much anyways unless healers are slacking, so maybe for oddball moments it's nice, but yeah...I'll assume you've been playing longer than I have, but I definitely don't remember asking for much self-healing, unless it was in a general rant about PvP back then. Nature's Swiftness depends on if we keep Predatory Strikes in any shape/form rolled into the spec, but eh.

Only one druid in the raid needs to take Faerie Swarm. While I doubt the slowing portion of the talent will work on bosses, this will take the place of Feral Agression for applying a 3 stack at once. Mass entanglment is likely more caster/pvp, but still can be useful if you are the only druid in a 10 man. Typhoon in forms is awesome. That is all.


Since Typhoon is confirmed usable in any form, I agree it's awesome. Screw Faerie Fire/Swarm, I'll let warriors throw up the damn debuff lol.

Wild Charge as you guessed is likely not finished, but will likely be this expantions version of Stampeed. Incarnation also not finished yet, but as it stands now would give us access to Ravage (stealth only ablity). Because of Ravages very high energy cost (60) we couldn't spam it. It also gives us a second stealth in combat which is nice. If you listened to the description of the talents during the pannel you would have heard that Treants are not the current ones you see boomkins cast now. They will do different things depending on your spec, so until this one is finished don't be to down on it yet.


I didn't catch that part about Treants, must've missed it while reading through stuff. Though I dunno what they can do to really change it, aside from making it something akin to Guardian of Ancient Kings like pallys have where you get a boost.

The vortex is a VERY powerful raid ablity. Because the ability does not actually taunt you can use to boost aoe damage with out danger to yourself, you save someone who is having to kite adds by giving them 15 yards of breathing room, you can yank melee dps off of your healer in PVP, use it as a tank for pulling casters into the clump during a challange run. While I don't know if this will work by launch, but it was suggested by another feral that you use Vortex + Typhoon to suck folks to you then knock em off a cliff in PVP. Demoralizing Roar is a great caster get out of jail free card for PVP or PVE. Less likely to be used for Ferals or Guardian's in PVE, but useful in PVP. The Bear Hug is going to be this expantions Nom Nom Nom. Everyone will love the name, and there is no way it will make it to launch. It's also kind of a fun ability. Don't forget you don't need to be a Guardian to take bear hug, anyone who needs to help stun something can take this.


Suppose you're right, guess I mistakenly assumed Vortex would taunt them all to you as well. Could be pretty fun depending on how it's implemented. Demo Roar I don't get how it's good for pve, but you're right with the pvp applications (if you didn't guess by now, I really don't care about nor like feral pvp lol). I just wish Bear Hug didn't force a form change, and being a channeled stun is kinda odd (considering we still have the never-used Maim for stuns). But still, great for PvP, pop your Frenzied Regen (well, assuming that's baseline for either feral now) and hug some loser while you regain health.

You are making the assumption that we are going to lose energy while shifting like we do now. Back at the end of BC the devs were saying they wanted druids to be able to make use of our shifting as an assit. Up until now the only benefit was shifting out of roots. Everything else was an inconvinence. I see Heart of the Wild as a solution to encounters were melee have to sit on our hands while the boss is out of range. We will have a very high mana regen, and a decent spell power buff and be hit capped. I say better throwing that out then sitting doing nothing. Master Shapeshifter still needs fleshing out, but it could be interesting to weave in spells to agument our rotation. Disentanglement is great for farming and world/ranked PVP.


Well if we don't lose energy while shifting, you're right that it'll be more useful, but I really don't see them changing that, though we'll see. Heart of the Wild is nice in the concept you described, but still if you shift out to hit them will spells while they're not in range, well if you're just sitting out there anyways tossing out spells, why not just roll boom then?

I am not sure why you think Hero Bear is, but you didn't need crit immunity. It seems like you are thinking of the Hybrid tank spec which sacraficed dps to be able to tank. Hero Bear was stepping in as DPS when the Tank died to save a kill. I had 3 guild first kills which I was able to hold the boss after the tank died long enough to prevent a wipe. If you look at Heart of the Wild, it lets you do just that. Can you fathom how much armor a 95% boost is? Thats for 45 seconds. Unless they change something spells can't crit, so the armor would help reduce the pain of crits.

Now all of that being said every one of these is likely to change somewhat. However I like what I see for now as I can pick talents to do a job, not because they will give more overall dps. The fun part about being a druid for me has been the flexability. I mean really, "I am just 1 respec away from doing your job better then you." The sky isn't falling, and devs don't hate us.

Well the main reason I said that is that we likely won't have access to the CDs we have now that would get the job done like we do now, such as SI, Frenzied Regen, etc; we might keep Barkskin, but that's it. Personally I see Hero Bear and Hybrid tank as the same, as both likely are taking (now) at a minimum 3/3 Thick Hide (hybrid tank to me takes it a step further by grabbing natural reaction while hero bear doesn't), otherwise even as hero bear you can't do much when taking crushing blows. So losing that crit immunity (and who knows, maybe they'll do away with crushing blows once and for all and you can still do hero bear with heart of the wild), all the armor in the world otherwise won't negate crushing blow damage.

Devs still hate us though, but they hate about everyone besides mages apparently, so eh.

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby Terias » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:34 pm

http://youtu.be/4_GZ7TJxpgM?t=12m53s

I really don't see raid saving happening anymore without si/fr.

Concerned about pvp with only barkskin as our only personal cooldown as well (espcially since it sounds like we get no armor bonus in bear after this change).

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Re: So, Blizzcon and Druid talent point changes...

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:19 am

Terias wrote:http://youtu.be/4_GZ7TJxpgM?t=12m53s

I really don't see raid saving happening anymore without si/fr.

Concerned about pvp with only barkskin as our only personal cooldown as well (espcially since it sounds like we get no armor bonus in bear after this change).

Ya as of writting I had not seen that yet. Bummer. I agree that PVP with the lowest armor in the game and only barkskin is going to be a bit tough. Some changes will need to happen.

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