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Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

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Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:24 pm

I am curious about whether guilds or raid teams give priority to feral (cat) druids over hunters for the bis agility polearm (in Dragon Soul that would be Kiril, Fury of Beasts). And, if so, how do you explain this to the hunters in your group ;-).

It's my understanding that the polearm makes a much bigger difference to feral dps than to hunter dps because our special attacks are modified by weapon damage from the polearm, whereas hunters just benefit from the regular stats or procs on the item. I'm guessing that hunter dps is modified by the damage on the ranged weapon (i.e., bow) instead. Is this reasoning correct? Does anyone know the math involved or exactly how big the difference (of upgrading to the polearm from a 378 weapon) is for druids vs. hunters?

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Konungr » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Correct. Feral Cats gain additional benefit from 2 Handed Agility weapons because Weapon DPS is our highest and most important stat.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:07 pm

Ripley wrote:I am curious about whether guilds or raid teams give priority to feral (cat) druids over hunters for the bis agility polearm (in Dragon Soul that would be Kiril, Fury of Beasts). And, if so, how do you explain this to the hunters in your group ;-).


You can always calculate the dps gain and tell them that. The difference is not even close as to how much we gain from a higher ilvl weapon vs. what they get from a stat stick. Most hunters understand that now...just ask them how ranged weapons affect their dps.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:58 pm

Thanks guys. Can anyone tell me how to calculate the relative dps gain for a feral cat vs. hunter?

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Konungr » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:43 pm

Ripley wrote:Thanks guys. Can anyone tell me how to calculate the relative dps gain for a feral cat vs. hunter?


You can use some sims or stat weights, or you can just tell the hunters that if they get priority on 2-Handed Agility weapons then the Rogues and Warriors get priority on the Ranged weapons.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:39 pm

Hey guys, I'm still having trouble getting this across to the hunter in our group. He continues to be of the opinion that because Kiril is BIS for hunters as well as druids that he should have an equal chance of getting the weapon.

As it stands now, both feral kitties in our 10-man group (yes I'm aware our class balance sucks) have a 397 weapon (the one from the slime guy) and the hunter has a 397 bow (none are BIS). However, the hunter's polearm is 378. We are 7/8 in normal right now. Given that situation, Mr. Robot gives a similar number of points (around 1500) for upgrading to Kiril. Does that mean that any of the three of us would get the same increase in DPS from upgrading to Kiril? Or is it wrong to make that kind of comparison using Mr. Robot?

I would love to take your advice and run some sims to be sure, but don't know how to do so (I located a program from Elitist Jerks, but couldn't figure out how to compare the different weapons).

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Konungr » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:01 pm

If you have any Warriors or Rogues in the raid, ask the hunter how he would feel about them getting an equal chance and taking it for the ranged weapons that drop, BiS or not.

If he is of the opinion that he would be willing to let a Rogue have a Ranged Weapon that would be a clear upgrade for him, then he needs to learn his class a bit better, and understand how to share loot within the raid group. It also might be worth bringing up the fact that a guild's loot should be distributed by what is best for the raid and not the individual. Yes the Hunter gets an upgrade by getting Kiril in that the Agility proc is quite nice, but the Feral will gain far more and therefore benefit the entire raid. All but 3 of our abilities are directly influenced by the power of our Melee Weapon, none of a Hunter's spells (That they use, or should be using) gain anything from the Melee Weapon.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Laurind » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:59 am

http://www.femaledwarf.com/
You can sim the hunter's dmg over here... they have an import feature, and you can change the gear with a drop down

and, get Mew to sim your stuff (link is over somewhere in here). It also has an "import" feature


That is to provide numbers, but that hunter is really an ass if he's still trying to get that weapon before the ferals, and it's not because we are ferals here... I'd try to get rid of that hunter from the raid... or there will be loot drama when something drops

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:09 pm

Thanks for the help. I was able to figure out the hunter sim program. However, I'm having trouble with mew. I was able to import my toon and calculate the dps with my current gear, but couldn't figure out compare the two weapons. I didn't see a page (like with the hunter sim you linked) where I could change out individual gear items. Any suggestions?

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Qbear » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:03 am

you can always do it the super quick way, know the stat weight for weapon dps is (last I checked?!?!) around 4.2ish (don't quote me)

So once you minus it all out the weapon will most likely be the same upgrade feral dps wise since he's still using a 378 item. Then you account for the proc which I have no idea how hunters value agility in terms of weight.

Then you look at the armor which of course is an up if your the raids 3rd tank or 4th? maybe you go bear and taunt the drakes on ultraxion trash? I mean clearly the weap is better for cats that's no question.

But it comes down to the fact if your raid leaders are seriously willing to give it to the hunter you have 2 options deal with it or find a better suited guild.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:52 pm

I'm still having trouble figuring out how to use Mew. I am able to import my toon, but I don't see any easy way of seeing how my dps would change if I had a different weapon (other than to manually change the wep dps, stats, procs, etc. to fit each weapon). In that hunter program, they had a menu where you could choose a different weapon and then run the analysis again. Is there something like that on Mew?

I'd also like to compare the LFR version of Kiril with the Spire of Coagulated Globules. I've heard that the LFR Kiril is better, but am having trouble believing that given that the spire has higher wep dps.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:20 pm

Mew can import from chardev ( http://chardev.org/ ). Import your toon into chardev, create several profiles with different gear setups, and then import them into Mew and compare dps. Make sure you turn on the appropriate raid buffs and select potions, food and flasks.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:15 am

Leafkiller wrote:Mew can import from chardev ( http://chardev.org/ ). Import your toon into chardev, create several profiles with different gear setups, and then import them into Mew and compare dps. Make sure you turn on the appropriate raid buffs and select potions, food and flasks.


Thank you! I was able to make the comparisons using the import from chardev. I think I must be doing something wrong, however, because I'm not ending up with the expected results. I'm showing that the 397 Spire is better than the 390 Kiril. The 403 Kiril does come out higher than the 397 Spire, but not by the degree I was expecting. Is there a thread where the relative merits/dps of these three weapons is compared directly?

Edit: I figured out what I was doing wrong. I neglected to put the 130 agility enchant on the two versions of the Kiril. The 403 now comes out as a very good upgrade over the Spire. However, I'm still showing the 390 Kiril to not be as good as the Spire (which is not what Mr. Robot says).

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Konungr » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:16 am

Ripley wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:Mew can import from chardev ( http://chardev.org/ ). Import your toon into chardev, create several profiles with different gear setups, and then import them into Mew and compare dps. Make sure you turn on the appropriate raid buffs and select potions, food and flasks.


Thank you! I was able to make the comparisons using the import from chardev. I think I must be doing something wrong, however, because I'm not ending up with the expected results. I'm showing that the 397 Spire is better than the 390 Kiril. The 403 Kiril does come out higher than the 397 Spire, but not by the degree I was expecting. Is there a thread where the relative merits/dps of these three weapons is compared directly?

Edit: I figured out what I was doing wrong. I neglected to put the 130 agility enchant on the two versions of the Kiril. The 403 now comes out as a very good upgrade over the Spire. However, I'm still showing the 390 Kiril to not be as good as the Spire (which is not what Mr. Robot says).



Mr. Robot is, pardon my language, fucking retarded, when it comes to Feral DPS. Other than a 390 Kiril being better than a 391 Fandral/Ransuer, you can simply go by whatever iLvl is higher because it will have vastly more Weapon DPS, which is our most important stat. 410 > 403 > 397 > 390 > 391(No proc makes these slightly less dps) > etc.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:26 am

Okay, so the better weapon dps and other stats (including agility) on the 397 Spire outweigh the proc on the 390 (i.e., LFR) version of Kiril? Thanks again for all the help everyone!

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Konungr » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:50 am

Ripley wrote:Okay, so the better weapon dps and other stats (including agility) on the 397 Spire outweigh the proc on the 390 (i.e., LFR) version of Kiril? Thanks again for all the help everyone!



Yep.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Laurind » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:41 am

can you share the numbers you got?

I know it's better for ferals, but I want to know how much... and I'm LAAAAZYYYYY XD
if you have them over somewhere plz post them, if not... don't worry

just the hunter vs feral, not the different weapons for feral

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:36 pm

I don't want to post the numbers yet because I'm not completely sure I'm doing this correctly (especially the hunter part). I'm still trying out different features. Also, I'm looking specifically at my toon (gear, talents, etc.), the hunter in our group, and the buffs we typically have available in our 10 man. So the results wouldn't necessarily generalize to other situations (we have an unbalanced group composition). Particularly because I'm comparing the hunter's upgrade from a 378 to 403 Polearm with a kitty's 397 to 403 Polearm. The difference here may not be that big.

However, I'm still inclined to say that kitties should have priority on the polearm because this is our BIS weapon and the actual Weapon dps is our most important stat. Since the same is actually true for hunter ranged weapons (i.e., their most important stat is ranged weapon dps), the solution that seems most fair to me (and actually best for the group's progression into heroics if we get DW down) is that hunters get priority on the bow from Deathwing and kitties get priority on the polearm. As it turns out, in our particular situation, the hunter in our group has better overall gear than the kitties because of the token distribution (i.e., he has all 5 397 tier pieces, whereas I have 2 397 and the other kitty has 1 397). The stats he gains from this extra gear definitely compensates for the extra agility and secondary stats that the cats get for having the 397 staff. So, in my estimation, we are roughly equal at this point overall (with the hunter coming out slightly ahead). Unfortunately, none of the agility trinkets have dropped for any of us.

As it turns out, I am the raid leader for the group. Unfortunately, however, we did not state ahead of time that there would be a difference in priorities on these items (in FL, the hunter got Ranseur of Hatred from a pug trash run, so it wasn't an issue), so I don't think it's appropriate for me to just change the rules now without having thought it through carefully and having good reasons for my conclusions. Otherwise, I come off as a self-serving raid leader and that is not good for group morale. Thanks everyone for helping me figure this out. I hope I can get the hunter on the same page.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Qbear » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:27 pm

Ah didn't know that you were the raid leader.

With that being said then there is 2 options I would personally look at being the raid leader. How does the hunter dps compare to the ferals, you guys are progressing through content if the hunter is far below you or the other feral in terms of damage (due to skill level and not items, which shouldn't be the case since he holds his 4set and what I believe is higher ilvl gear pieces) then the weapon would clearly help the raid on people that would make the best use of it.

The other thing of course is largest upgrade over attendance if the ferals and the hunter make every raid without fail then it's not uncommon to place the weapon on who would gain the most from it (which seems to be what your trying to find out by this post) to be completely honest it is possibile for it to be a larger upgrade on the hunter based on the fact that you already have a 397 weapon.

Take both of those factors and make a choice and explain it to him worst case you lose a hunter but at least you made a clear and respectable choice off of factors that 95% of all guilds use to pass out loot.

Just make sure whatever route you take you keep to the same practice on off set items like rings and trinkets since you'll have the same feral and hunter going for those items aswell.

The fact that as the raid leader you've gone to such lengths to find the best place for it goes to show a lot so hell if the hunter has issues with it in the end show him this thread and explain to him how you went about placing loot on your raid.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Floofles » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:34 pm

I don't see any real reason for a feral to get a pole arm or staff over a hunter, it is a marginally bigger upgrade for the feral but honestly the loot drops again.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Ripley » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:47 pm

Floofles wrote:I don't see any real reason for a feral to get a pole arm or staff over a hunter, it is a marginally bigger upgrade for the feral but honestly the loot drops again.


Sorry, but I have to respond to this one. Sure in the case I'm describing where both ferals have a 397 weapon already, it's not a big difference (and actually might be a slightly bigger upgrade for the hunter with a 378 weapon). However, if both feral and hunter are upgrading from the same ilvl, there is no question that ferals get the larger upgrade (because of the weapon dps that hunters don't even use). The difference isn't even close. Furthermore, no one knows how many times (if at all) the Kiril will drop in one 10 man raid group. The drop chance is rated as low. When our group went through Firelands, Fandral's Flamescythe only ever dropped once. I was lucky enough to get it that time, but I frequently hear the other feral kitty say in a dejected tone "I never got to be a fire kitty." It was very sad and I am hoping this other feral will be first to get the Kiril this time. Of course, when the new expansion comes out in a few months, we'll all be upgrading with greens and none of this will matter. So you're right that we need to keep it in perspective and focus on what really matters... having fun with friends and killing stuff. :P

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:51 pm

Of course, when the new expansion comes out in a few months, we'll all be upgrading with greens and none of this will matter.

Don't be holding your breath here. The expantion is not that close. When the Friends and Family Alpha starts then give it 6 months.

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Re: Loot Priority for 2 handed agility weapons

Postby Konungr » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:53 pm

Ripley wrote:
Floofles wrote:I don't see any real reason for a feral to get a pole arm or staff over a hunter, it is a marginally bigger upgrade for the feral but honestly the loot drops again.


Sorry, but I have to respond to this one. Sure in the case I'm describing where both ferals have a 397 weapon already, it's not a big difference (and actually might be a slightly bigger upgrade for the hunter with a 378 weapon). However, if both feral and hunter are upgrading from the same ilvl, there is no question that ferals get the larger upgrade (because of the weapon dps that hunters don't even use). The difference isn't even close. Furthermore, no one knows how many times (if at all) the Kiril will drop in one 10 man raid group. The drop chance is rated as low. When our group went through Firelands, Fandral's Flamescythe only ever dropped once. I was lucky enough to get it that time, but I frequently hear the other feral kitty say in a dejected tone "I never got to be a fire kitty." It was very sad and I am hoping this other feral will be first to get the Kiril this time. Of course, when the new expansion comes out in a few months, we'll all be upgrading with greens and none of this will matter. So you're right that we need to keep it in perspective and focus on what really matters... having fun with friends and killing stuff. :P


Why not adapt a loot system like EPGP to remove the "drama", that way the loot is evenly distributed since you only get priority if you have put in Effort without gaining Reward.

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