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In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

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In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Mandragaran » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:51 pm

Well, the short answer is: yes :).

I'm not sure ya'll are still open to responding to such posts. I've been reading this site and others on which many of you write for a while now. So I thought I'd bite the bullet and ask for some pro tips.
I've posted my armory (hopefully I'm not in healing trash) and a couple of logs below.

I use leafkiller's ovale script. But to be honest, I find that the priority system is instinctual almost now. So I basically look at it when I lose track. But here's the problem: I'm not performing like I should be. The first obvious issue when one looks at these logs will be my DoT uptime. Perhaps I'm reading the logs wrong? But they are surprising low. I should have my bleeds up >90% of the time, but I appear to be in the 20-30% range. Second, I have no set bonus. Although I'm a good raider (my history lies in the grave of a retired Death Knight), I just transferred to Lightbringer and haven't gotten into a guild that kills stuff yet. Third, threat, threat, threat. I drop threat every time it's off CD and it's still not enough. 3-4 times per fight I literally run from the boss (as it chases me) (never at the beginning as I wait some agonizing long seconds before I cast FC). While this makes the game more exciting, it's not optimal :P. I don't know if there is any remedy to this other than raiding with better/more geared tanks though.

Last, I actually don't think I know enough to ask any more questions - but I know there are issues.

Oh - regarding gear - please know that I am aware of the best enchants and gems. I use Rawr for some close calls (in game addon and silverlight page). I've tried Mew, but tbh, it's just a pain to run for gear optimization. I don't have any gold atm though. So I'm admittedly not in BiS chants/gems in some areas like my weapon, etc.


:arrow: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/l ... n/advanced
:arrow: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jr5n ... amageDone/
:arrow: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8eeb ... 992&e=7352

So, if you're still open to doing this, thanks! If not - ignore this! :P.

Thanks guys.

Edit 1: Fix typos.
Edit 2: Ditto.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Disso » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:35 am

Quickly looking over your WoL reports, I think you're reading them wrong. If you first sort it by player (yourself) and then look at each boss attempt that isn't like 50 seconds long you'll see that your dot time significantly increases. Most looked to be in the 50% - 70% range. You have to take into account for fights dead time, when you just can't actually dps the boss. That being said, going into your dashboard on ranking info, you're a little low to what you should be doing.
The armory audit shows your malevolence isn't enchanted. No idea how much mats are on your server, but at the very least the 2H Agi enchant should be on there. Also says your missing 2 engineering tinkers. Not familiar with Engy so I couldn't tell you what those are exactly, but I'm sure you know.

I know you said you know what the BiS enchants and gear are. Still want to say this tho, sorry :). Two rep items would bump you up a bit once you get exalted w/ Earthen Ring and I'm guessing Wildhammer (assuming its the direct equivalent of Hellscream and you can get epic gloves)

Spec and Glyphs look pretty much on point.

The only thing I can think of is mainly due to your aggro problem, and I think that might be due to your tank. I can't say that for sure as I can't tell how much threat he's holding through WoL (If there is an actual way, I'm not aware of it.) I'm basing this assumption off my experience as a cat, where I don't ever pull aggro. Cower rarely gets used, and when it does its generally when I'm zerked or on a fight where there is a lot of movement / downtime on the boss and my dots tick my threat over. But if you're having massive threat problems like you say, then that is definitely going to drop your dps a lot. (having to pop bear, energy spent to do cower, unnecessary downtime not dpsing, etc.) I don't really have a solution on how to reduce as its most likely not your issue. Best I could say is wait a bit longer before you start DPSing.

Hope this helped a little. Best of luck mate.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Blazzor » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:41 pm

Yo bro I think you should pull more dps with few chnages.First one would be the glyphs.First of all The Sr glyph its bit out of date now since Sr was chnged a bit.It was buffed to 50% but the dmg increase`s the White attacks ONLY.it would increase the bleeds nor Shred.I would chnage it for Tf.Since Tf increases all your dmg done by 15%(bleeds,whites,shread etc) and gives you energy.
Second is glyph of rake.That glyph is good for leveling but for raiding its bad.most bosses nor trash dont run away so it is useless.instead glyph of Fearie fire is bit more usefull.since with only 1 cast it stacks 3times of the target.that mean you only lose 1 GB cd instead od 3.
Also i looked on what stats you reforges and into which stats.Everything looks good exept your reforge on Relic.You changed Haste into hit.Im not sure if thats mistake or that was intended but it would be more usefull to reforge that into Mastery and if u dont want more mastery for some reason then just delete the reforge since haste is more useful than hit.
About the engi i would get them soon since most are useble even with normal ench`s
Im not sure why you get so much Treat problems :S.It might be realted to your guilds tank`s.I have better gear than you but i never had any treat problems and i usually dont use cower.just try holding off a bit at start.
Ah i nearly forgot.ABout your gems.i dont think it was necessary using 2 Glinting Demonseye for belt and legs since the buff is really minor.If you would socket 2 agi gems you get more agi but its good that you putted Glinting Demonseye in helm since it now gives more agi than a gem.
I hope this help.If you got any question PM me or just reply on this thread :D

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Mandragaran » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:06 pm

I love this forum ...

Thanks so much guys. It gets a little daunting for an educated guy after reading everything there is to read, still having a few issues, but being faced with getting flamed by latch-key geniuses on the regular forums :P.

The threat issue is a problem. I do wait for a solid (real) 4 count after pulls. So, I never (never) pull of the tank at the beginning of a fight. Rather, I pull 3-4 time during fights if you can believe it. A very small percentage of that is my fault as in situations where the tank must switch bosses or when a bosses drops aggro (i.e. deadmines). So, I've learned to stop attacking in those situations. By the way, I have to hit escape. White attacks still cause a dead kitty.

I've been raiding for years. When my main was a frost dk I had this problem with lower geared tanks. To some extent, this could be a gear problem, but rarely as I don't really have any gear yet. So, I'll continue to try to get into a good guild on this new server and hope that ends that largest issue.

The glyph comments are super. Thank you. I'll fix those immediately. I'll also switch out those gems and reforge the hit issue on the relic.

Before Cata I was able to pew pew a bit more with some highly geared folks and tended to focus on bleed up time in my logs. Perhaps this is habit as I had to generally focus on disease uptime as a DK. Therefore, I get the feeling that - given a good tank, proper gemming, chanting, and reforging, that this is where I should focus? Amirite?

So basically I need to figure out how to keep those bleeds as close to 100% uptime as possible taking into consideration fight mechanics ("gtfo the fire newb" ... "huh? it's blue!").

Any tips on this? I've been thinking that I simply need to be prepared to give up a shred every now and again or whatever, slow down, and hit the bleed before it drops. I really can't think of any other way to improve the uptime.

Also, from what I've read it is a net dps increase if I allow rip to drop off for up to 3.3 seconds in order to get TF up before I hit a 5pt rake. Sometimes this is a close thing, but TF is 4 seconds off so I clip rake. Is this correct?

I got this example of a rotation off of EJ. It looks like they recommend two rakes? Am I reading that correctly? If so, is that two rakes every time I apply the bleed.

Mangle: (Weapon Dmg) * 3.6 + 1017
Shred: (Weapon Dmg) * 3.5 + 1036
Rake Direct: 272 + 0.023 * AP
Rake DoT: Rake DoT: 555 + 0.14 * AP (Per tick)
Rip: 57 + 144 * nrCPs + AP * 0.023 * nrCPs (Per tick)

Thanks again.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Blazzor » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Yes it better to give up one or two shreds for your dots.On my kitteh my rake can crit up to 20k and rip to 24k`ish so its much more worth than 25k crit from shred ^^ About the uptime Your really have to bring it up .Personally i have 75% on rip and 83% on rake.It was lower but i started to use ForteXorcist which increased it by bit.If you are planing on using ForteXorcist dont get rid of Leafkiller script it i still useful :D Also i forgot to say before that on some fights like nef,Maloriak and much more you can still Feral charge on boss while bing really close to him.This can be big Dps increase.for 10Energy you can hit for 35k! But be careful not to use it when boss is casting somthing that can dmg you then.Like nefs Tail smash.
it doesnt matter if you rip before using TF.Tf should be used when u can on low energy.Same with bleeds use them when they are bout to pop off.
If you have situation where your rip is on 1-2sec and sr is on similar then use the rip.Rip has the Top Piority over all other spells that use Combos.it has bigger prio than rake.
About Ej.I would just go with 1 rake instead of 2.I think it waste of energy.
Also i was wondering when r u using Berserk ?

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Disso » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:58 pm

TF buffs your rip and rake significantly. You can have it timed where you'll lose 2 - 3 seconds of rip uptime to always have it refresh rip when you hit TF. I think the doubledip into rake could mean that you rake without the TF buff to build combo/more damage, and then rake again while TF buffs it for increased damage. That could be incorrect tho, but thats how I do it. My "rotation" is such that, unless I screw something up, rip is off for a maximum of 3 seconds before I hit TF and then refresh the rip. I also rake as soon as I rip to buff that bleed as well.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:23 pm

Disso wrote:TF buffs your rip and rake significantly. You can have it timed where you'll lose 2 - 3 seconds of rip uptime to always have it refresh rip when you hit TF. I think the doubledip into rake could mean that you rake without the TF buff to build combo/more damage, and then rake again while TF buffs it for increased damage. That could be incorrect tho, but thats how I do it. My "rotation" is such that, unless I screw something up, rip is off for a maximum of 3 seconds before I hit TF and then refresh the rip. I also rake as soon as I rip to buff that bleed as well.


Modeling has shown that waiting on Rip/Rake for TF to be ready is a dps loss. The scripts do try to TF during the last tick of Rip/Rake, but keeping the DoT up is more important than waiting for TF (which can take longer than you think as Omen procs often delay casting TF). The alternative is hitting TF with too much energy and wasting energy which is a greater dps loss than simply having put Rip/Rake up before TF. This has been measured to a very fine grained level in the simulation work that several of us have done with Mew (including Toskk, Yawning, Mihir, Alaron and myself).

What you reprinted from ejb looks like a damage breakdown and not a rotation - and there are two lines for Rake there because it has both a direct damage component and also a DoT component.

One other interesting thing about Rake, is that if you have 9 seconds or less left on Rake and TF is up, you should refresh it early. This will happen when you cast Rake shortly before a TF and turns out to be worth an extra 100 dps to the cycle (this was discovered by Mihir). So never worry about TF when refreshing your DoTs. TF when your energy is low enough and it is off of cooldown, but if it is still a few seconds away and one of your DoTs is going to fall off, refresh the DoT and do not wait. The overall dps loss has been measured to be pretty significant.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Disso » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:36 pm

Appreciate the clarification. Disregard my previous post. Leaf knows a lot more about what hes talking about than I do :)

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Mandragaran » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:01 pm

Ha! Leafkiller commented on my thread. That's as good an autograph imo :D

Ino....immadork.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby spw » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:50 am

Timing your cd's is important too. Looking at your Magmaw kill you Berserked near the start rather than holding it for the 1st head drop. Potting + CD's + on use trinkets during increased damage phase = Win. Try that next week and you will see a huge jump.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Mandragaran » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:08 pm

That's an interesting point. So, at least with Magmaw, you think holding off on Berserk until the blitzkrieg phase is a net dps increase. I'll definitely try that.

I haven't been pre-potting or burst potting with this guild. The tanks simply can't handle it.

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Re: In response to the "Need Help?" thread :P

Postby Mandragaran » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:18 pm

Disso wrote:That being said, going into your dashboard on ranking info, you're a little low to what you should be doing.


Very thoughtful response, thank you.

And, yeah, lol, I AM low damnit (19271.6). My epeen confidence just tanked. You'd think a gamer with 4 degrees would be able to do a lil better? Maybe notsomuch.

Part of it is the raid itself. I've been in 2 excellent guilds, and my performance and dps increased (seemingly) exponentially. Some of that is simply overall increase in damage divided by less time in the fight. But there are other issues like not having to grant my worthless innervate, use my brez b/c the boomer is running away from something, or drop a tranq every fight. So, I guess I'll give myself a 10% credit against that phail :P

Again, thanks very much. Love this site.

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