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Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

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Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Goodmongo » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:16 pm

Does anyone have a clue as to the logic behind the decisions blizz has made recently? It seems survival hunter's dps is way up there while ferals are getting a slight nerf in the patch. I know some claim it's a dead even trade but it still doesn't answer why the change when all the top logs are showing kitty dps to be middle of the pack anyway.

I guess what makes it worse is that in LK a kitty would be close to the top and on the top here and there. Now we are just another dps and this leads to people wondering if taking a melee or another OP hunter is the best route to go. These are not fun times and I really hope we don't continue on the slide down to where ferals were in vanilla days.

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Alaron » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:33 pm

We should see a buff, actually, with the new metas (though that applies to everyone, so relative positioning shouldn't change much). I believe Survival is getting a slight nerf, though I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, if you're on normal modes, it doesn't matter... skill > class balance/gear, for the most part, unless you're stuck in one of the specs that's severely undertuned at the moment (arms, arcane, both non-survival specs, maybe ret). I'm generally fighting our rogue for the top spot on the meter.

If you're on heroic modes where everyone''s skill is approximately equal, then there's not much you can do if you get sat. These things tend to be cyclical. Remember when Ret was OP?

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby deca » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:30 pm

hi there,
as far as i can see survival hunters actually get quite a huge slap with the nerf bat, considering alot of % dmg reduction on multiple abilities without any compensation in terms of transferring damage to other damage methods like bleeds. We kinda get this compensation, lowering bleed dmg but also increasing mangle and shred damage for a considerable amount.
I agree that relative positioning will not change much because of the new metas, but the next patch holds alot of major changes (e.g. hunters being able to autoshoot while moving.. not sure how to value this..) and we will see how this will turn out in future dps datasheets.

But let me say this: i think it's really not about being envious of other classes who are overpowered because of whatsoever blizz thinks, at the moment.. a class' value should not be only measured in dps because there are simply some other methods and playstiles behind it, not to speak of raid utility - a rogue cannot switch to heal when it's needed in an encounter, i can. And well, it seems that still on heroic and raid level alot is determined by skill. yeah, sv hunters are too good, and maybe too easy right now - i lose to them in dps and in equal itemlvls, but not on all bosses and in all situations. and: always remember what you're comparing in those logs, highend raid tuned players in a single encounter, just don't read too much out of it and be happy when the boss is down and you can say, yes, all bleeds were up, i used my trinkets together with berserk or in critical boss phases and did NOT stand in the fire -pat your own shoulder and have a look at the dps AFTERwards, my experience says you'll be on or near top :)

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Kallapryy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:50 pm

Take a look at http://www.stateofdps.com and you can see where they need to focus on buffs/nerfs currently. At the moment there are some huge gaps that should be adjusted.

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Oakes » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:05 pm

Assasination Rogues ahead of us in all accounts. Many fights by a wide margin.

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:45 pm

So what if rogues are ahead of us? It's not as if we are the bottom of these fights or even the lowest melee class. Hell Boomkins are ahead of ferals for every fight save 2.

Should we begrudge our feathered brothers because they finally get a time to shine?

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Goodmongo » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:26 pm

Those charts prove my point. We are on average 10% behind. That is hugh. If blizz announced a 10% nerf or buff to a class the whole community would go bonkers. So 10% is alot.

And it's apples to oranges when you say "you are ahead of combat rogues". Yea we are but they have a spec that is way ahead of us. You can use the same gear for all three specs playing a rogue. I can't use my feral gear to go boomkin. Demonology may stink for locks but they have destruction that uses the same gear. That can't be said for us.

I know others like shadow priests are in our boat but that doesn't mean our boat isn't sinking. I'm not asking to nerf hunters. I'm asking for a buff to cats. If they want to buff arms or SP fine. But 10% is pretty big difference.

Edit: Forgot to add that this difference taken together with an already biased raid mechanic against melee is putting pressure on why even take melee. In 10 mans I'm seeing usually just one melee taken and sometimes it goes up to two.

And our oh crap stuff like hero tank/emergency heal is based on the premise that the raid is near fail. Since that's a negative viewpoint many don't consider it. Bottom line is we really don't provide any utility that a raid can't get somewhere else. (A hunter can kite just about as well as we can hero/tank or an evasion rogue).

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:53 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:So what if rogues are ahead of us? It's not as if we are the bottom of these fights or even the lowest melee class. Hell Boomkins are ahead of ferals for every fight save 2.

Should we begrudge our feathered brothers because they finally get a time to shine?

As a former/still off-spec'd boomkin, I say yes, we should begrudge them :P

But seriously, a lot of their dps imo is inflated due to the multi-targeting nature of Starfall for any fight with adds or multiple bosses. Not to mention quite a few bosses favoring ranged...

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:19 pm

While you may assume that I am talking about the "Unused" and less viable specs for melee I am not. Over half the fights we are ahead of Fury Warriors Ret Palis, Frost DK's and Enhancement Shaman. In the adjusted over all numbers we are ahead of all of the above listed viable raid specs. In fact only two melee spec's ahead of us are Unholy DK's and Assination Rogues.

So I wasn't comparing apples to oranges, only viable raid spec's. I can use all the same gear for tanking that I use for DPS.

While we may be an estimated 10% behind 1 melee spec (Unholy DK) we are 8% ahead of another (ret). That puts us right in the middle after the patch. I am still trying to find out what is the big concern is.

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:43 pm

shinryu wrote:But seriously, a lot of their dps imo is inflated due to the multi-targeting nature of Starfall for any fight with adds or multiple bosses. Not to mention quite a few bosses favoring ranged...


If you take a look at the logs of top boomkins starfall is rarely above 6% of their dps. This includes add fights like Meloriak, and Magmaw, and just single target fights like Atramades and Chimaron. Yes range is being favored in this tier but the damage is not overinflated because of aoe spells, its just easier for ranged to dot and switch to adds faster then melee.

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Goodmongo » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:21 pm

You miss the point. Ten percent is WAY too much difference. Ret Pallies and warriors are also getting screwed. We argue and fight for a trinket that results in 1% difference in DPS but you easily dismiss 10%. I just don't understand.

And no your gear can't be used for tank and dps as the enchants, gems and reforging are all different. A combat rogue and assisnation rogue can use the same gear (except weapons) but druids really need to have different gear or change it up. It may be the same piece but what we do to it matters.

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:40 pm

Well lets be reasonable here. If you want to min max I doubt you can just switch between combat/assination specs with out regemming some and reforging some.

Same with druid tanking. Its not a "hey guys lets stack nothing but stam" party any more. My agi/master gems and agi gems will work just fine for tanking. I could switch some things up for min maxing, but they will work just fine the way they are. Also don't forget lots of the best bear gear is off set gear. As you replace early drops with tier you make those into "bear pieces"

Is this the best way to go about it? No, but I am just trying to help assist you in finding a way to be more useful with out "giving up" and blaming blizz.

As for 10% difference. Tell me a single time in all of wow that at least 1 spec from every class was with in 5% of each other? This isn't about hybrid tax, it's just straight numbers. Things go in ebbs and flows and they never get it 100% right. Enjoy playin a druid and do everything you can to maximized your skill your play and your theory craft. If thats not what draws you to the class then find one you will enjoy playing even if you arn't withing 5% of the theoretical #1. Again this isn't a "just re roll" line its the truth. If numbers are all you really care about in the class going to a pure class will get you what you want more often then naught. It's a game, enjoy what makes you the most entertained.

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Alaron » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:53 am

Agreed, the top DPS class tends to shift around. I'd MUCH rather be in the middle than be on top and be looking at a nerf (see survival). We minmax what's in our control, we don't worry about what's not in our control (class dps balance).

Look at it this way: If your RL is talking about benching you, pull your logs from the last month of raiding and point out how much less damage you take from GTFO effects, due to your extra movement speed. (Not taking less damage? Well, guess what you need to fix? :P) Show him the time you brezzed the tank before he could even call out for it. Etc.
(For the record, I get benched, but that's because my guild operates on a rotating schedule, and we're not challenging the type of content that requires raid minmaxing.)

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Re: Survival Hunter DPS vs. Kitty and their Nerfs

Postby Goodmongo » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:11 pm

Actually I pretty much did get benched. They have a lock and boomkin so brez is covered. Right or wrong they are going 4 ranged and 1 melee usually and maybe 2 melee. In the guild they have a DK, rogue warrior and me as melee dps. BTW this is 10 man stuff.

It was nothing personal as I was pulling 92 to 95% of my max possible dps but was still behind the rogue and DK who were pulling a lower percentage. And since they are in fights and got some gear drops the diffference just gets bigger (not to mention the greater VP points).

It's druids and warriors turn this expansion to be lower on the list. Again nothing personal against me from blizz its just the way it is right now. But having said that it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it or not try to get it changed. Basically if you want to raid you need to go boomkin.

Oh yes, I could change guilds and be in one where I'm higher dps then their dk, hunter or rogue. But that means these guys are not playing their class to the fullest and that just means they will 'stand in the fire'.

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