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Feral vs Rogue

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Feral vs Rogue

Postby warlun » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:01 am

While the upcoming nerf or buff to feral dps is yet to be unveiled, I believe ferals are already at a bad place in terms of utility anyways.

Assuming feral dps and rogue dps is equal I think bringing a rogue to a raid (esp on 10 man raids) is more beneficial, let me explain:

1.Interrupts. Energy regen on a feral is atrocious - it is alot easier for a rogue to interrupt as their energy regen is alot quicker, and being hit/exp capped they are much more reliable and efficient to do the job. (even a ret pally is better than us at doing this).
There is also the issue of having to physically travel when skull bashing that induces a slight delay to land a successful interrupt that makes ferals inferior.

2. Being able to shift to bear. Although it is useful on paper, doing this in a raid encounter rarely helps killing the boss - all it does it prolongs a wipe.

3. Battle rez. Blizzard nerfing battle rezzing makes what is left of our utility pretty much nonexistant. (esp when working on progression encounters)

I play a feral druid and although I am constanly fighting our rogue for higher dps on raids - it has become clear that a rogue is much more valuable to bring to a raid esp when motw has been covered.

I would welcome people proving me wrong but with each raid night passing, I feel that my place in the raid has become less and less useful. And if 4.0.6 should nerf our dps - I expect my raid spot to be numbered.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Albione » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:55 am

You have more chance to get into a raid as a Balance than a Feral. I know that from experience.
But I agree with you, rogues are superior to Ferals in raids.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:16 pm

I disagree with #2. I personally have saved two of our first kills by going to bear after the tank died (25 man). Both times the boss had ove 10% health. As long as you announce that you have picked up the boss in vent and the healers get on you its very possible to give folks a shot at killig it.

The other points are kind of valid as our interupt costs more and we have little to no aoe damage (Very importent in hard modes).

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Alaron » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:58 am

I think you're talking about marginal utility. 1 druid > 1 rogue in my book, easily. 10v25 has an effect when discussing brez utility. Also, don't forget Tranq being win on 10man.

And I agree with Tinder; I tanked 20% of Atramedes' health last night when our MT dc'ed. (Sadly, we still didn't get a kill.)

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Oakes » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:46 am

Sadly I have been replaced by the guild rogue in our ten mans. While it may not be as much of a deal with regular 10 mans, heroics require so much more then we can offer right now. For example, H10 man halfus, our rogue pulls 30K damage while keeping halfus interrupted the whole fight by himself. 6 sec interupt > 10 sec interupt on a 8 sec cast. And in H10 man if one shadow cast goes off its a wipe.

As for emergency tanking H bosses hit like trucks pulling trucks loaded with concrete so you have no shot if your in a true kitty spec. Even if you pop EVERYTHING at once you might live through three or four hits. (if the boss is at <5% health you might be able to burn him).

Tranquility is great for fights like Nef but with a 10 min CD chances are you wont get to use it every attempt on a progression fight unless you have painful AFK's between pulls.

MOTW - Same as pallies, BRez - if you have a resto druid in your group or a warlock its useless, FF - I have a warrior MT so yeah... Mangle - helps the MT with threat but for our raid comp it does little else.

Additionally this expansion has been absolutely terrible for melee in general. Throne of the four winds? First fight you change targets with regularity and on Alakir you can't even get behind him to shred. Mangle spam FTL anyone?!

And in the facts that Kitty feral charge is quirky, half the time i use it i end up facing the wrong way (unlike rogues who's shadowstep places them directly behind the target while readjusting the way they were facing) and blood in the water not refreshing rips even if there are 2 secs left on the debuff (i playw ith 45 ms so it isnt client side latency issues)

Still love my kitty but he feels like he got locked out during the winter storm that has been the blizz nerf bat!

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:35 pm

I am saddened to hear such negitivity about our state as viable raid members.

As to our untility every other class in the game is in the same boat. There just arn't completly unique buff anymore. Now this isn't to say that that everyone brings that same buff/unility equally just that redundency exist. Yes rogues can intrupt better then us cause it costs less and they are likely to be hit capped and we are not. But at least we have one.

I know how hard heroic bosses hit and their abilities. Currently how we kill heroic halfus is I am trading halfus back and forth with the other tank to let them drop their MS stacks. I am in full cat gear with nothing enchanted/reforged/gemmed for tanking. The only change I make is I take the points from Primal Madness and put them into thick hide for uncrittable. I am still doing 30k on him as I switch to cat and cower then dps while I am not tanking.

There are some fights that we are not perfect for, but we are really not in that bad of a place (PVE wise). PVP is a different sorry but I digress.

My point is we are very flexible and can make minor changes which my move away from max dps, but still make us useful. Are we always the best choice? No, but we are hardly bottom of the barrel.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Lax » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:38 pm

The blood in the water timing bug is being fixed in 4.0.6:
Blood in the Water: Timing on this effect has been improved so that Ferocious Bite will immediately refresh Rip, rather than be slightly delayed (which gave a chance for the Rip to expire despite being refreshed).


Anyways, I agree the bosses are hard on melee, but I personally don't struggle to stay in the top of dps. It's only SV hunters and DKs that can keep up or do better. But I guess that really depends on who you play with.

In terms of utility, I think a druid brings a lot more to a 10 man than a rogue. In 25 man its less evident. In any case I think you should bring the better player instead of the class.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Goodmongo » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:43 pm

An assisin rogue does around 8 to 9% better dps then a feral cat. So why take the cat? Being hero bear and wiping just proves that it didn't work. A wipe is a wipe. So no added benefit there. And 8 to 10% more dps means 8 to 10% faster on the kill. All hero bear switches that happen when boss is under 8-10% means it would be unnecessary to do the switch with the rogue as the boss would have been dead already.

Many fights are not melee friendly to begin with. So melee spots are fewer then ranged. A RL has to decide if they want higher dps (over 10% for SV hunter) or maybe a tranq cast during a fight.

As for switching specs that is easy for a rogue or mage as they use the same gear. A feral can't go boomkin as the gear is different. Playing a SV hunter requires a lower threshold of skill then feral. So even if you are more skilled it will be really hard to make up that difference unless the other player is a noob. Same can be said for rogues. Harder then hunter but not as hard cats.

Edit: The old saying of bringing the playe rinstead of the class was what everyone says when they know another class is better. Bottom line is an average DK or an averge SV hunter will out dps a real good cat. And in a raid you bring what you need to kill the boss and not the player or the class.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:39 pm

The results on stateofdps.com are pretty telling. On every fight assassination rogues top feral cats in dps, and as stated above, they are generally hit capped and superior at interrupts. Depending on raid comp, ferals do provide some extra utility. I usually dps on most fights but also act as the third tank where needed, and of course there is battle rez. Of the hybrid classes, ferals are currently a strong choice for a part time tank/part time dpser. We have the least variation in gear choices between our dps and tanking specs so it is easier to gear up for both.

It is a little chilling to see the the results of the top parses though, along with the comparative 372 simc parses. My experience raiding the last couple of months has been that early on I topped the dps meters on a lot of fights. Over time, that has dropped off as we gear up. I don't think we are scaling as well as others are. The changes that shift our dps from bleeds to mangle/shred are scaling better in the sims, so that might help some, but the viability of feral cats in high end raiding is questionable and if the trend continues, something we will need to bring to the attention of the devs. A boomkin/offspec bear may be a better way to go.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Alaron » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:29 pm

Leaf,

Just to point out that simc had a bug that was substantially lowering feral dps. It's been fixed, but I don't believe they've cut a new release yet.

For everyone else,

While I don't have any heroic experience to speak of (we're on 25M Atramedes), from a game design perspective, it really does depend on skill. We're not a pure DPS class, so we can't count on bringing top-end DPS to secure our spot. (Hunter/lock/rogue/mage SHOULD be top 4; unholy is a bit OP, looking at current numbers.) You bring competitive DPS and utility to the plate to secure your spot. (tranquility, brez, herobear.) Yes, the enrage timer in some fights is tight enough that you should get sat for a DPS; however, for fights with looser enrage timers and tighter survivability, that DPS should get sat for you. (Good- our 25m raids with 3 good survival hunters, and I consistently top them all.)

I do agree that you should start thinking about a boomkin set for 10man, however.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Dabeasty » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:38 am

Alaron wrote:We're not a pure DPS class, so we can't count on bringing top-end DPS to secure our spot. (Hunter/lock/rogue/mage SHOULD be top 4; unholy is a bit OP, looking at current numbers.)


Im sorry but this really doesnt sit well with me. I play my Kitty to DPS, nothing else. I spec, gem, gear and play to dps, not to tank or heal. As such I want parity with other classes, nothing more and nothing less. I was under the impression that the 'hybrid tax' was no more. That if I spec pure dps then I should rightly expect to compare to other dps classes.

Also, I do wonder what is driving some of the changes Blizzard makes sometimes. Im not calling for nerfs to any class or spec, but if you look at things like stateofdps.com or look at the recount logs from the top guilds World first kills you can clearly see, for example, unholy DKs and Balance druids doing much better than Feral. However, in their wisdom, Blizzard have buffed Balance and indeed what initially looked like an Unholy DK nerf is now looking like a net buff, whilst Feral has been left more or less "as is" in terms of dps. Explain that to me?

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Alaron » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:25 pm

I can't explain Blizzard at all, honestly. I don't think we needed a buff, but I definitely don't think we needed some of the nerfs we were hit with, especially in PvP.

That said, things aren't nearly as bad as you think. Here's the results from the latest SC for PTR data (missing UH DK's and ret palas), now that the bug with feral AP's been fixed:

Image

I have no idea how accurate SC is (so not highlighting this more publicly yet), but things look okay so far. Assuming the high results for spriests are an outlier, every class has at least one spec that's within 10% of the top. I think that's damn good, actually.
EDIT: Oops, left Frost DK's out of the SS, they're at 24.5k for DW and 23.5k for 2H.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Goodmongo » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:15 pm

Alaron, something is really wrong with those dps numbers. No way a sub rogue is that far ahead of assisnation rogue. And I don't think SP's that got big of a buff. PTR numbers just don't add up right now.

As for the hybird tax shouldn't that apply to boomkins as much as cats? Fact is hybird tax is outdated and was used as an explanation to try and get blizz off the hook for bad balancing. Even Ghostcrawler on more then one occasion there should be no more hybird tax and his goal was balance as he no longer wanted to force raids into taking a specific class.

Five percent can be made up through play but really we are close to 13% behind hunters. I can't explain why you beat your hunter but these numbers are based on data gathered over a month so one person's or boss or raid is factored out. The site drops the top and bottom 5% from their figures and factors our deaths and non-boss kills.

Finally if the PTR numbers are correct (which I doubt big time) we are even worse off since we are now 14.5% behind the top dps class which is a hybird!

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Alaron » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:41 am

Spriest numbers are probably off, that's what I said.

Sub did get that much of a buff, yes, but nobody will play it because the rotation sucks. :) Read my post again: if you leave out the spriests, everyone's within 10%, at least with one spec.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Kshar » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:06 pm

Much depends on your raids comp when judging feral utility. Yes 25 and 10man are a completly different ballgame, but for purposes of this rebuttal I will stick with 10man.

I raid main feral dps, and my buddy is our main assassin rouge. Yes, on a throwdown pure dps burn 7-8x outta 10 he will probably win (fight mechaincs aside ... lotsa movement - feral owns rogue), but the margin is very slim, we are trading top spot constantly. Then comes the utility argument, and in our comp he probably feels a bit put out.

What does our friendly rouge bring? hmmm ok he can kick .... uhh but we also have a dps dk and tank. He is also a comedic dude so he gets that.

Moi:

1. Mangle buff (allows hunter to use higher dps pet/more reliable)
2. Sunder (cheaper and more reliable then expose+no warrior in our grp)
3. 5% raid wide crit (allows hunter to use higher dps pet/more reliable)
4. Offheal. Yeh Tranq is boss on alot of fights in a clinch. Chimaeron fueds, nefarien crackles etc. + offheals with nurturing instincts is no joke.
5. We have a battlrez. More often then not its better I throw it then our overtaxed busy resto drood.
6. Ok innervate sucks now ... fair enuff but over a long tough fight 3-4 innervates can still add up.
7. Bear form ... yeh ok, its overrated, but still has given us 2-3 kills.
8. In the long run with being the fastest moving raider class around and the heal bonus from Nurturing, I would wager to say there isnt a melee class more easy to keep alive then a feral ... thats a boon for any raid.

I'm sure I have left out half of what makes ferals awesome but there is my little contribution to the debate.

Ultimately if your a strong player and good friends with those you raid with I wouldn't see how your spot could be up for grabs from a rogue, unless guild politics comes into it or your in a top 100 guild.

cheers

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Goodmongo » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:02 am

I disagree whith how you framed the equation. It's not feral vs. rogue. You need to look at the entire raid composition. Right now ranged is favored over melee. I'm not sure anyone will argue this point (some might but the numbers show otherwise). So in that 10 man raid at most 2 will be melee and if your raid has 3 melee then more power to you, or you're wiping lots.

So many times there is a boomkin druid in the raid. Because the boomkin brings everything the feral does your entire list is out the window. that means a rogues dps and his kick rules over a ferals.

Now if you and the assisnation rogue (he is assisnation right else he's in the wrong spec) are tied for dps either he is bad, you are way better then him or his gear sucks compared to yours. I agree there are some fights that ferals do better at, but that is not the point.

In the guild I was raiding with we are trying to be very progressive on our server. So the best I can hope for is being called in for a specific boss or two. And I guess that is one of the other major differences. Many more casual guilds use the same 10 players (or 25) for the entire night's raid. Guilds trying for faster progression swap players in and out.

So what I've saying is I either have to switch guilds and be more casual, not raid as much (I sat out all last week as they took the rogue and DK), wait till all this stuff is on farm or complain and hope for a fix. BTW if you check the official forums you will find warriors, ret pallies and shammies also complaining very loudly.

See I just don't understand how anyone can say "it's just 10% that's no big deal".

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Alaron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:06 pm

I guess someone else is bringing the 5% crit as well.
Anyway, I understand the problem, GM, and I don't have any good advice. Sometimes there isn't just enough spots for everyone, and if your RL wants to jeopardize the long-term health of the guild by sticking with the same people every night to push faster, that's his call. I think you summed up your options pretty well.
(It's been my experience that guilds who don't regularly rotate people in end up collapsing after a tier or two.)

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Dabeasty » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:07 pm

Alaron wrote:I can't explain Blizzard at all, honestly. I don't think we needed a buff, but I definitely don't think we needed some of the nerfs we were hit with, especially in PvP.

That said, things aren't nearly as bad as you think. Here's the results from the latest SC for PTR data (missing UH DK's and ret palas), now that the bug with feral AP's been fixed:

Image

I have no idea how accurate SC is (so not highlighting this more publicly yet), but things look okay so far. Assuming the high results for spriests are an outlier, every class has at least one spec that's within 10% of the top. I think that's damn good, actually.
EDIT: Oops, left Frost DK's out of the SS, they're at 24.5k for DW and 23.5k for 2H.


What's an SC for PTR data, where's it from, how reliable is it? Do you have a recent one with dk in? I haven't seen anything like this anywhere else

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby Alaron » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:47 pm

SC = Simulationcraft. Think Mew, but attempts to model every class and spec. I can't speak to how accurate it is, because I don't know every class well enough. Some numbers are probably accurate, some are probably not. Yawning and I (well, Yawning, mostly) helped fix a feral bug in the latest SC; until then, it had ferals well below every other class.

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Re: Feral vs Rogue

Postby morphiusrt » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:53 am

Wow interesting to see Survival getting such a nerf. Haven't looked at their ptr changes but they are top right now on Stateofdps.com by a lot but I think that has to do with the quality of players playing the other specs.

I have been debating on going boom os (seeing as I will be the cc-able class in pvp now). I have some gear in my bags and could easily get every epic leather caster piece that drops. I just don't want to play a boring spec thats why I switched from my lock to my feral back in lk. They simplified afflic too much and made is less dps then destro to the point where gm's were making you play destro.

I think blizz should make it "the harder it is to play the higher the DPS", and I know for a fact feral is still considered hard because 90% of people say "how do you do so good as feral, its so hard to play"

I love how on trash pulls tab mangle, rake, rip can pull some serious dps. Or huge pulls berserk swipe spam always puts me top.

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