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Stat Weights

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Stat Weights

Postby syntax » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:49 am

Howdy,

How possible is it that our stat weights should be different based on the fact that almost no fight is tank and spank in cataclysm? I am pretty competitive with another feral druid in my guild and he doesn't use ovale at all. I have "better" gear than him but on average I feel he is beating me more than I him.

When I compare our gear he has a little more haste and a lot more expertise. However, I have 500 more mastery rating and a little more crit. I'm sure his expertise is definitely helping him on fights like Magmaw and Chimaeron where the boss is frequently facing you. Even Maloriak during the red phase you have to get in front of him for a bit so the healers don't yell at you.

I did my own set of testing on a practice dummy using straight mastery/crit, and then capping hit and getting as much expertise as I could, and then only capping hit. The straight mastery/crit WAS the highest dps (by about 400). The hit/expertise mix was next and then having hit with no expertise was the worst (700 below no hit/exp at all). I am going to do another test with just expertise and no hit and see what I come up with.

But I just wonder since so few fights are tank and spank anymore, should we be re-thinking our gear choices?

Magmaw - constantly turns and faces you (and I'm also one of the ones doing chains)
Omnotron - lots of running, movement, and target switching
Maloriak - AOE on green, have to face him on red, have to run out sometimes on blue
Atremedes - Tons of DPS time lost in air phase, constantly avoiding fires/rings
Chimaeron - Huge hit lose while he is casting and he faces you frequently during feuds
Nefarian - haven't done it yet.

Halfus - generally fine
Valiona and Theralion - generally fine
Ascendant Council - Ridiculous amount of movement, some target switching
Cho'Gall - Tons of movement, tons of target switching, have to face the tentacles and can only use mangle on last phase.

Conclave - generally fine (no different from what everyone else has to deal with as well, anyway)
Al'Akir - haven't beat em yet, but generally fine so far

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Re: Stat Weights

Postby Alaron » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:01 pm

You bring up a good point. If you're forced to attack from the front, then that essentially doubles the value of expertise, making it more valuable than other stats. I'm not sure how you would tweak stats for movement fights, though. Depends on your bleed uptimes, really.

Have to think more on this.

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Re: Stat Weights

Postby mekell » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:40 pm

The only extra set of gear i carry around is a few hit pieces in the event i need to worry about interrupt. At this point, that is a measly 2 pieces, but im sure every little bit helps. I am not suprised hit/exp dps gear provided lower dps, this is pretty much backed by every simulator out there, which generally values weapon dps > agi > str > mastery > haste or crit (usually very close to each other, depends on gear level) > hit > exp.

My experience is pretty limited, my guild is currently working on atramedes and havent even stepped foot in BOT yet except to clear trash occasionally). Also consider my guild is 10 man only and i am the only melee as well on 2 tank fights.

Red phase on maloriak, my guild lets me stay behind as long as i run in front for the fire (assuming i dont get consuming flames). Occasionally i miss it, and noone yells at me so it cant be that bad.

For magmaw he faces front so infrequently that you can just pool energy for that peroid of time (remember energy is a measure of time, so as long as you arent capped on energy and you can use your energy faster than you regen it, which i am willing to bet is also the case ;), then essentially nothing is wasted). Jumping on the head also only takes a matter of seconds (though compared to someone who isnt jumping on the head, that can provide a small dps advantage).

Certainly gearing for each fight (or constantly reforging) is the absolute min-max to the extreme and likely would provide benefit, but the reality of it is, its not very practical - especially at higher gear levels where having a duplicate (or triplicate) piece to reforge, regem, re-enchant, isnt exactly easy to do when other people also need that gear (or the guild needs maelstrom crystals). We have seen fights like this before, before cata (though as you indicate, they are far more common in cata) and personally i just make due. My guild isnt gonna wait for me to reforge for each fight, and i certainly don't want to maintain that many gear sets. But thats personal preference.

As far as how i am gearing/ gemming (considering my guilds progression, which is lower than yours), i have way more crit than haste as my tertiary stat (everything to mastery, i generally perfer haste to mastery as my 2ndary stat). My calculations on Mew actually values haste more than crit, and i spent the money to try that and found i liked it far less and the dps gain was so negligable that i swapped back (which makes sense because the value of haste compared to crit for me was practically identical).

Regarding ovale and its use, I have ovale installed and keep it hidden. The only time i unhide it is when i feel overwhelmed (learning a new fight) so thats one less thing i have to think about. Generally speaking, i don't use it. My dps tests on the raid dummy yielded results within a reasonable margin of error (sometimes ovale on top, sometimes manual on top) so i felt pretty confident i am not screwing up my "rotation" too badly when doing it manually). I think its an incredible tool, and suggest its use to anyone that is trying to figure out kinks in their dps.

One other thing, if you dont already, try keeping a combat log and upload it to one of the popular parsers (worldoflogs for example). That should give you an even better breakdown of what the other druid is doing compared to you. THat may provide some insight (maybe hes double potting potion's of tol'vir and you aren't, or maybe his profession provides a buff you dont have, etc). Just some thoughts.
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Re: Stat Weights

Postby syntax » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:06 pm

We do logs all the time. Last night was a bad night for me as I died on omnotron... twice, died like 30 seconds before the end on chimaeron, and I was healing for conclave. But here is last nights log:

Linking the Argaloth fight as I'll be comparing us on that below: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6h04 ... 126&e=6339

So he ended up doing about 250k more damage than me.

After going through everything it looks like the #1 issue was I was late on my berserks which made me waste a bit of it during the bloodlust. I don't think that would have accounted for 250k damage though.

Here are our buff lists. I cut out everything that was either irrelevant or the same.
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Taking that further and looking at when we had those buffs here:

Sintax--
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Redkeekee--
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So the one glaring observation is the fact that he has 2 cooldowns to blow during berserk: berserking (being troll) and his jewelcrafting trinket. The other major things is the fact that he got more than double the clearcasting procs that I did. That's just terrible RNG luck on my part right?

And finally here is a comparison of our ability damage:
Sintax--
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Redkeekee--
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Re: Stat Weights

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:39 pm

I have poked though the logs and looked at gear and spec and I can point out a few things I see. (I reference the Magmaw fight a lot as both of you lived all the way though it and had 25 omen procs each).

1. You are not using the 21 agi/3% crit damage meta. Looking at the damage numbers he has about 130k more damage with his crits. Shred is the biggest example. With the patch coming up this will make an even bigger impact.

2. In general he seems to have a higher up time on his bleeds.

3. I noticed all 3 of the ferals in your raid are putting mangle up. On the Magmaw fight for example he was hit for a total of 19 times (6 by you, 3 by Redkeekee and 10 from the other). You should be able to just pic one of you to keep the mangle debuff up and the rest don't need to cast it at all (until you get 4p).

4. It looks like Feral Farie Fire is being cast way to often. On the Magmaw fight you cast it 6 times and he cast it 4 times. Like mangle only one of you needs to be casting this debuff. With a 5 minute duration only one of you should need to put it up at max 4 times (I am not sure if the exposed head keeps the debuff between phases).

5. Omen proc's do have a big effect on damage. If he has 8 more proc's it will affect things. However they will not make up the damage difference you have mentioned alone.

The biggest change I would suggest is switch your meta out and see what kind of difference it makes. I would also get the other two ferals together and have you guys pick who will be the mangle/FF bot and pick a back up in case the main person dies. I would highly recomend that you rotate so you all get practice doing the rotation both ways and so no one feels like they are on bitch duty all the time.

-Tinder

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Re: Stat Weights

Postby mekell » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:16 pm

haste does affect OOC proc rate.

I dont use the 3% crit dmg meta atm, and im doing anywhere from 20 to 21k on magmaw, so i dont think its the meta (or atleast not all of the meta), however 130k more damage on crits is pretty significant.

As tinderhoof has mentioned, i don't think you are going to find a silver bullet "oh thats what you are doing wrong" but rather its going to be a combination of things.

FF doesn't use energy, and unless you are energy capped at the time you cast it or cap energy while you are on GCD, re casting it makes zero difference what so ever (other than using a GCD which over the course of a long fight will make little difference but could account for a very minute amount of damage).

Its more than likely bleed uptime (and maybe timing bleed refreshes with buffs like TF or procs), slight misuse of berserk and lust, Overusing mangle will lose you DPS. You can alwyas try swapping the meta, but that takes a good bit of investment as it likely will require you to sawp out a ton of gems.

I actually increased my dps by a non-miniscule amount by not using the 3% crit dmg meta, and gemming mostly straight AGI. Your personal mileage may vary based on gear, group makeup, etc.
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Re: Stat Weights

Postby Alaron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:48 am

Just quickly looking at the ability breakdown you posted (don't have time right now to roll through the rest of your log) I'd say the 8 extra Omen procs was half the damage difference, and the other half was your lower uptimes. I'd mostly call it bad RNG, though I'd second Tinder's advice about picking a feral to handle Mangle duty.

The meta...ehh, not worth it with the patch (presumably) coming next week.

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Re: Stat Weights

Postby syntax » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:28 am

Tinderhoof wrote:1. You are not using the 21 agi/3% crit damage meta. Looking at the damage numbers he has about 130k more damage with his crits. Shred is the biggest example. With the patch coming up this will make an even bigger impact.

Mekell already touched on this, but it has been said that the dps loss due to having to gem outside of straight agility outweighs the benefits to the meta.

2. In general he seems to have a higher up time on his bleeds.

I'm not sure what you are looking at. Maybe you aren't taking the heart into account too? I had 8 more ticks of rip then him and my rip ticks averaged almost 3k more per hit. I AM one of the ones who does the chains on magmaw. And while that only accounts for 5 seconds or so at a time, it is time lost and of course really screws up keeping your rotation good.

3. I noticed all 3 of the ferals in your raid are putting mangle up. On the Magmaw fight for example he was hit for a total of 19 times (6 by you, 3 by Redkeekee and 10 from the other).

I only put it up when ovale tells me to (meaning only when it's not present). I assume the others could just be putting it up the same time I am.

4. It looks like Feral Farie Fire is being cast way to often. On the Magmaw fight you cast it 6 times and he cast it 4 times. Like mangle only one of you needs to be casting this debuff. With a 5 minute duration only one of you should need to put it up at max 4 times (I am not sure if the exposed head keeps the debuff between phases).

The heart does not keep any debuffs between appearances.

5. Omen proc's do have a big effect on damage. If he has 8 more proc's it will affect things. However they will not make up the damage difference you have mentioned alone.

Yea the omen proc's are huge.


The biggest thing I notice is his melee and shred damage is much more then mine. Agility/attack power is what alters that, right? His melee damage on magmaw averaged 500 more per hit, and his shreds averaged 700 more. That seems very significant.

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Re: Stat Weights

Postby Alaron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:36 am

2. In general he seems to have a higher up time on his bleeds.

I'm not sure what you are looking at. Maybe you aren't taking the heart into account too? I had 8 more ticks of rip then him and my rip ticks averaged almost 3k more per hit. I AM one of the ones who does the chains on magmaw. And while that only accounts for 5 seconds or so at a time, it is time lost and of course really screws up keeping your rotation good.

Sorry, you're right, I started looking at them backwards for some reason. (Oh, I see, you flipped the order after the first set of charts.)

Yeah, what you're looking at is purely AP (from agi/str). The melee damage increase is from his UW trinket; not sure about the Shreds.

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Re: Stat Weights

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:19 pm

Mekell already touched on this, but it has been said that the dps loss due to having to gem outside of straight agility outweighs the benefits to the meta.


I have not tested this since Beta, but the value of using the 21 agi/3% crit Meta over (for example) the 54 Mastery gem was about 100dps after taking into account the regemming so if you really want to min/max you will use the Relentless now despite the loss of agility gems. But that is only about 100dps which is going to be lost in the RNG and execution noise.

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