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Feral Charge + Ravage

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Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Alaron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:15 pm

As we've determined that running out to do a FC->Ravage is a dps up, I'd like to take a look at the bosses of the current raiding tier and see which ones it's useful for. I haven't faced every boss, though, so if anybody wants to chime in, it'd be welcome.

BWD

Magmaw: Probably not. (Anyone used FC here successfully? I could see FC'ing the body and then popping the Ravage on the head, but I always struggle to get off an FC on this fight.)
ODS: Yes, best to use on target swaps though
Maloriak: Yes, though it can be difficult to get behind him sometimes, and your raid may require front-side DPS for flames. (Hopefully with it having a cast-time now, we can just run in.)
Atramedes: No god no. FC puts you in the middle of the model, right where the sonar traps spawn. I guess you might be okay with proper timing, but it's risky.
Chimi: ??? (Just started working on him, not sure)
Nef: ???

BoT

Halfus: Yes. FC only works on Halfus, not drakes. I like to FC Halfus to start and get Rake/Rip up on him, since it takes the drakes a few seconds to become targetable.
Valiona/Theralion: Big yes. FC works and doesn't take you out of melee range! Woot!
Council: ???
Cho: ???

TofW

Conclave: Yes, as long as you can make whatever jump you need. (Never DPS'd here; healed once and tanked once on 10m.)
Al: ???

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Dabeasty » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:15 pm

Re Chimi: I tend to fc at start and then returning to position (I always baggsy rear of Chimi) after the feud. You can actually fc without going out of range here cos of the massive hitbox. I'm gonna check if there's time to do another fc in-between the feuds.

Oh and this is the only fight I've found a use for stampeding roar...pop after feud before folks run out.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:00 pm

To answer some of your questions:

BWD

Magmaw: You are unable to FC here at all due to a warning "no path available". This applies to the body for sure, I have tried unsuccessfully on the head, but I haven't tried very hard.
Atramedes: I only use this on the pull and when he lands from the air phase for the exact reaons Alaron lists. Also unlike the other drakes in this tier you can't FC from melee range, you have to run very far for it to work.
Chimaron: I use it here every time TF comes off cooldown, (you can do it with out moving out of melee) and to get back into position after the fued is finished (my dps spot is right in his middle).
Nef: You can do this with out moving out of melee for both Nef and Ony. I highly recomend that you watch the tail swipe timer as you will be hit if you FC during that time.

BOT

Council: It's very tricky to do FC here. I use it on phase 1 on the pull and to target change if dps is to heavy on flame. Phase 2 I use it some times to get back on target for the air guy (Yes my raid demands melee on the teleporting caster guy). However due to the moving tornado's and lighting rods you need to be very careful when you use it so you don't wipe the raid.
Cho'Gal: I use this on the pull, to get on the adds faster, and then to get back to Cho'Gal. Very helpful to get your rip going again.

ToFW

Conclave: I have had a few to 10 parses for 25 normal and I found that using FC other then the pull just threw things off. Either the boss is moving to much that you could get out of range for to long, or there is stuff on the ground you won't want to FC into.
Al'akir: You can't FC on this boss at all due to the same Magmaw error "No path available".

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Lax » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Al'akir: You can't FC on this boss at all due to the same Magmaw error "No path available".

It's worth noting though, that you can charge in bear form to Al'Akir.

In phase one I switch to bear just before wind burst and then charge back in while still in the air. It lets me charge right over the frost patches and get back to dps'ing right away.

In phase two I sometimes use bear charge, when I have to dodge the cyclones all the way out on the edge. It lets me get back in melee range faster.

The phase one charging was a huge dps boost for me when I started doing it. I recommend it. Makes your healer happy too :)

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby shinryu » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:56 pm

So just to be clear I'm getting this right...we literally stop everything when FC comes off CD and run out the appropriate min distance, then FC back in? Because I have to say, practicing this on a dummy it just feels so odd to drop everything to run out when FC is off CD just to leap back in and eventually get around to using Ravage (since LK's script doesn't recommend its use until Stampede's almost dropped off).

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:31 am

Do not run out for FC based my current Ovale script. The modeling that has been done in Mew times when to run out for FC so that FC comes off of cooldown just as you are far enough out to charge back in. It is not waiting for FC to come off of cooldown - a condition that has not been modeled. As I stated in the Ovale thread, I plan to work on a version that will recommend when to run out (if I can find a way to do this in Ovale).

I did test running out on a training dummy last night and it was a little awkward - although it should be better today since the patch notes claim you land on the backside facing the target now. One thing we need to figure out is how long it actually takes to run out to FC range (and turn to face the target) on any given fight. Remember that the dps gain drops of quickly.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby shinryu » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:38 am

Leafkiller wrote:Do not run out for FC based my current Ovale script. The modeling that has been done in Mew times when to run out for FC so that FC comes off of cooldown just as you are far enough out to charge back in. It is not waiting for FC to come off of cooldown - a condition that has not been modeled. As I stated in the Ovale thread, I plan to work on a version that will recommend when to run out (if I can find a way to do this in Ovale).

I did test running out on a training dummy last night and it was a little awkward - although it should be better today since the patch notes claim you land on the backside facing the target now. One thing we need to figure out is how long it actually takes to run out to FC range (and turn to face the target) on any given fight. Remember that the dps gain drops of quickly.

Mkay, I look forward to the update. Using it in tonight's raiding, it definitely seemed rather clunky, considered just turning it off and manually tracking FC since once FC is recommended by Ovale, it just stays up no matter what until it's used, unlike say Berserk where it'll stop recommending it if you eat up some Energy.

So yeah...we don't stop combat and run out for it, but still try to use it on CD basically then?

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Arctagon » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:43 pm

Even if it was possible to use FC on Magmaw it wouldn't be smart, or so I would assume. If you leap behind him you would only fall into the lava.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Alaron » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:49 pm

I was hoping I could FC on top of his head and DPS from there...THAT would be cool. Sadly, no.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Greenriche » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:54 pm

What would you guys say the actual dps boost of the whole 'run out and FC back in, on CD' thing is? In other words, lets say I do 15k dps on a typical fight where I stay on the boss the whole time. Will I do 15.5k dps if I run out for stampede with minimal lose of white hits, or is it more like 15.1k or even 15.01k? Obviously the actual amount gained is going to be gear dependent, but I'm guessing that Alaron and others have done some math (or simmed with SC or Mew) on this and might have a more concrete answer than just "it's a dps up". I haven't had a chance to check out the latest mew. Is there a new option in the simulation settings?

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Alaron » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:28 pm

Yes, there is an option to simulate mid-combat FC->Ravage when you set it to simulation.

My rough rule of thumb is that it's a 4% DPS up by doing midcombat FC->Ravages, which goes down by 1% for each second you're out of melee; so only run out if you can get back in 3 seconds or less. I'm sure 5 people will post and tell me my math is wrong now. :P

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Dabeasty » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 am

How about you pay your Priests...my improved rotation is...

Lifegrip > Feral Charge > Ravage......

:D

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Arctagon » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:53 am

Alaron wrote:My rough rule of thumb is that it's a 4% DPS up by doing midcombat FC->Ravages, which goes down by 1% for each second you're out of melee; so only run out if you can get back in 3 seconds or less. I'm sure 5 people will post and tell me my math is wrong now. :P

Have you done any calculations on this? If so, can I have a look at it? Just out of interest. On another note, if you know you won't have need for it in the encounter, you could use Dash, and Stampeding Roar (although it costs 30 energy, and that might perhaps be something you do not want to use) when Dash is on cooldown, when going out for FC. That will minimise the time you are away from the boss.

Dabeasty wrote:How about you pay your Priests...my improved rotation is...

Lifegrip > Feral Charge > Ravage......

:D

Haha, that's definitely a solution. :p
Last edited by Arctagon on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Devils » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:36 am

I not prefer the run out charge back solution, but it Sooo much encounter when FC usable on melee range or the run out version:

BWD

Magmaw: maybe his head is chained (i always was on hook duty)
ODS: usable - especially on target swap and then moving away for the slimes
Maloriak: Yes. (but in green phase, when he push you away it’s great to reach the raid and the adds)
Atramedes aka Stevie Wonder : Yes, between 2 sonar pulse.
Chimi: Yes, the best if you ask the RL to put you behind Cimi.
Nefa: Yes on Ony / Nefa.

BoT

Halfus: Yes on Halfus + positioning on dragons
Valiona/Theralion: Yes
Council: sometime - p1: small hit box, but when the fire council member charge out u can move out and charge back – beware the fire path. p2-3 positioning / runback
Cho: Yes + positioning on the adds

TofW

Conclave: a great way to move faster from boss to boss.
Al'akir: the cat charge is not usable, except the last (floating/flying) phase but if you use it u charge into the floating lightning cloud and it will kill u.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby mekell » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:35 am

One thing to note on atramedes, which i tried a couple times with success last night, if you end up trapped behind a wall of fire and Atramedes is within FC range, you can FC to him over the fire to him without taking damage. Just be careful, as others have pointed out, not to leap into 4 sonar pulses.
Image

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Arctagon » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:30 am

I just did some quick calculations to expand on the idea in my previous post.

Unglyphed Dash + unglyphed FC = Dash every sixth FC (exact number: 6)
Unglyphed Dash + glyphed FC = Dash every seventh FC (exact number: 6.428571...)
Glyphed Dash + unglyphed FC = Dash every fifth FC (exact number: 4.8)
Glyphed Dash + glyphed FC = Dash every sixth FC (exact number: 5.142857...)

StR + unglyphed FC = StR every fourth FC (exact number: 4)
StR + glyphed FC = StR every fifth FC (exact number: 4.285714...)

Most serious raiders have both Dash and FC glyphed, so it could look something like this:
1st (28 sec): Dash
2nd (56 sec): StR
3rd (84 sec): N/A
4th (112 sec): N/A
5th (140 sec): N/A
6th (168 sec): N/A
7th (196 sec): Dash
8th (224 sec): StR
...
where the number before the parentheses denotes which FC after engaging and () denotes at which point in seconds into the fight.

On the 6th FC, Dash will be off cooldown in 4 seconds, so one could alternatively wait it out, which will also make it possible to use StR on the 7th FC (although it comes off cooldown on the 176th second into the fight), which, in the above example, is used 48 seconds after coming off its cooldown.
...
6th (172 sec): Dash
7th (200 sec): StR
...
Here StR is used 24 seconds after coming off cooldown, which is half the amount of time from the aforementioned example.

In addition to Dash and StR one could use speed potions and the likes, in order to make the occassions you run out for FC with no speed enhancement occur the least amount possible.

However, all of this is not genuine. For instance, we would never be able to use FC as it comes off cooldown, since we simply don't know exactly when to run out for it, when in the given encounter, so that it comes off cooldown and we get in range simultaneously. This is especially hard since pure tank-n'-spank fights were extinguished with Cataclysm, and such a fight is pretty much what this assumes. Also, using StR would most likely not be optimal, since we spend 30 energy for a 10% speed gain. Other than that, it drains 0.25 energy every second on average, assuming it is kept on cooldown, which is not that much, although that energy could be used to Shred instead.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby morphiusrt » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:57 pm

Just to note when Council turns into captain planet, he is not chargeable. I don't know if this is some kind of bug but it wouldn't work for me.


Anyone else so used to facing the wrong direction after feral charge that you start to turn yourself everytime?

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Bloodtainted » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:16 pm

After the 1st wave of hotfixes were applied post 4.0.6 I can no longer ravage after a feral charge. Its bugged for me. Anyboy else encountering this bug or heard of it from other ferals ?

I get the "you must be stealthed" error message

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:31 pm

Bloodtainted wrote:After the 1st wave of hotfixes were applied post 4.0.6 I can no longer ravage after a feral charge. Its bugged for me. Anyboy else encountering this bug or heard of it from other ferals ?

I get the "you must be stealthed" error message


It is working just fine for me.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Beanna » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:46 pm

I also encountered some problems with my FC/Ravage macro since the patch. Sometimes I can not use Ravage through the macro, it just don't want to happen, and I had to put back Ravage on my spellbar for when the macro crashed.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby shinryu » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:28 am

Yeah I encountered this error as well way back when the patch dropped. Simply having Ravage one any spell bar fixes it.

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Bloodtainted » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:39 pm

shinryu wrote:Yeah I encountered this error as well way back when the patch dropped. Simply having Ravage one any spell bar fixes it.




I did not have ravage in a macro but removing it and replacing it on my bar has semi fixed the problem. I have to spam the button sometimes to get it to fire off.

I really hope they fix this even directly clicking on the spell in the spellbook produces the error.

Anyway ty for the help and feedback :)

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Mandragaran » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:12 pm

Dabeasty wrote:How about you pay your Priests...my improved rotation is...

Lifegrip > Feral Charge > Ravage......

:D


Oh I like that!

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Re: Feral Charge + Ravage

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:46 pm

25 CHim is so broke for this. You can FC and be under his belly. Not in 6yards of anyone and do full rotation. And everytime FC come off CD you can do it again and not change position. Which mean 0 travel time. I hit world #6 for druids on this fight with out tricks or DI. I was only 1K off #1 and he got those 2 buffs. This is now my fav fight. Granted my world #6 feral achiev put me around world #100 for all classes.
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