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state of dps

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state of dps

Postby warlun » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:10 am

Just browsing through 10 man heroic encounters for dps values - looks like we're not bringing much to the table:

http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid=10H&samples=200&spec=dps

We're very close to the bottom on most encouters

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Re: state of dps

Postby Dabeasty » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:33 am

Its not just 10H...we only do marginally better in the other categories. It's a sorry state of affairs currently. It does make you wonder why Balance, our spec that is really performing well, was actually buffed in the patch whilst Feral remained more or less as is. This, whilst PvP capability was hammered on the back of a statement about us being given extra damage to compensate.

As I recall we were balanced at a time when we had a rake/mastery bug giving us significantly more dps than it should. The bug was fixed but no rebalancing applied.

Im losing faith.

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Re: state of dps

Postby shinryu » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:08 am

The oddest part was, the buff to Mastery wasn't that that huge for Moonkin, but given that they were already performing well, I do agree it's odd they felt the need to buff their Mastery just to make it more attractive over Crit (as for the WM "buff", I consider it just more of a fix really) which is now pushing them over the edge. I know pre-4.0.6 Moonkin largely complained about Mastery being worthless, and ironically it's now only above Crit in terms of "bad" stats...then again, I don't think any caster prioritizes any stat above Haste, Haste is still king for the secondary stats.

But yeah, I'm willing to bet the lameo devs didn't consider that nerfing bleeds would have a far more appreciable effect on actual pve bosses for cats rather than the faux paper math buff that showed shred and mangle buffs being a slight dps increase on paper in spite of losing the extra bleed damage; sure, if every fight were Patchwerk it wouldn't be as bad, but of course, none of the bosses are. Even the BH boss's mechanics (about the closest to Patchwerk unless you're assigned interrupt duties solely on Halfus) gimp feral because we can't Shred for about half the battle due to stacking.

So yeah...we're in a sad place unless they realize the bang up job they did to destroy feral pvp (which was never OP) also ruined quite a bit of feral pve.

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Re: state of dps

Postby Dabeasty » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:44 am

Whats particularly worrying is that whilst we dont do well in normal, we do far worse (compared to the other classes) in heroic. This suggests to me that we aren't scaling well (once again). It kinda makes me reluctant to put so much effort into my Feral now because by the time we are in heroics it will be too late to raid on an alt or less well geared off spec.

http://raidbots.com/dpshistory/Overall/10H/
http://raidbots.com/dpshistory/Overall/25H/

Its not nice to look at!

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Re: state of dps

Postby warlun » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:27 am

Yeah, the devs were pretty fast to fix that double dipping mastery to rake bug...

It's pretty sad when it comes to nerfing ferals things happen very very quickly - but it takes a relatively long time to re-balance us properly again...

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Re: state of dps

Postby Alaron » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:13 am

There is nowhere near enough data for heroic modes to make any definitive judgments. On a fight-by-fight basis, the only fights I would consider benching a feral on are Atramedes (that's more of an all-melee thing) and Maloriak (poor sustained AoE DPS). That said, we're pretty much in the same spot as ret/enhance/fury(arms) at the back of the pack. I don't think this is a feral problem, this is a melee problem.

Let's look at it another way. Since players will switch to the best dps spec for their class, you only need to consider the top spec when comparing class to class. Add in an extra spec for shamans and druids, since they can't switch easily, and you end up with 12 specs to compare. Numbers look like this at the moment:

1. Spriest (ranged)
2. Moonkin (ranged)
3. Unholy (melee w/some ranged capability)
4. Destro (ranged)
5. Fire (ranged)
6. Hunter (ranged)
7. Rogue (melee)
8. Enhance (melee)
9. Fury (melee)
10. Feral (melee)
11. Ret (melee)
12. Ele (ranged)

As you can see, ranged > melee. (I don't know the answer to this issue: I'm just pointing out it's not an exclusively feral problem.)

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Re: state of dps

Postby morphiusrt » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:32 am

So its coming down to "well we can take melee and have to heal them much more and have them do less damage or we can take ranged and have less healing and higher dps" seems like a tough decsion to me. Boomkin does seem kind of fun atm, might work on some boomkin gear so I can be of asset to them team no matter which fight.

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Re: state of dps

Postby Goodmongo » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:12 pm

But if they can make unholy DK's competitive for that anti-melee fight then why not the other melee classes? I think there is too much excuses being given out for Blizz. Bottom line is if all melle including DK's were bad then we can argue that Blizz failed at the mechanics of the fight. But that isn't the case as DK's are fine. So the real problem is that Blizz dropped the ball when it comes to melee classes outside of DK's.

One final point. There seems to be a big drop off after rogues so sometimes just listing the order only gives part of the story.

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Re: state of dps

Postby Kallapryy » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:30 pm

If your RL is considering sitting you on Mal due to adds take this into consideration if you really want in the raid vs raid stacking for the first guild kill of a boss. ATM (I haven't tried this on heroic this week with the add nurf / cat changes) on adds I FF, Mangle, rake, rip each of the swills (reapplying on each as necessary). The FF / Mangle will help your raid dps get them down faster. My dps on them is low by class design, but my utility here ( our swill tank is a warrior ) is just as important for threat, bleed dmg and FF as anyone else's damage on them atm. Let's also not forget about your battle rez and if your casters have thorns on cooldown during this part - you are utility there as well.
Bottom line: As Alaron said we do not have enough data yet to see where we truly stand. With the patch this week a lot of things about classes and fights changed. There is not a large enough sample size to see where we stand in the think of things.

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Re: state of dps

Postby warlun » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:36 pm

My main used to be a ret pally and I still love that toon, so I keep it maintained as much as possible and read up about it all the time.

I have all heroic gear except the crafted Blacksmithing stuff except for 2 trinkets which are license to slay and impatience of youth, one is a str stacking trink and the other is a 2 min on use str proc trink which i align with my wings and Guardian of Aincient kings. After the patch, the ret pally's dps has gone up considerably to the point of being extremely competitive of my feral cat which is all 359 geared except for the tier shoulders and boots.

I would say my cat dps is pretty solid but having a ret alt (with less gear) that used to be so uncompetitive suddenly becoming comparable again, leaves you wondering how good really feral dps in general is.

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Re: state of dps

Postby shinryu » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:45 pm

Well no need to worry about Spriests and Boomkins anymore, they've just gotten the nerfhammer.

Granted, that still doesn't fix our dps doing better, but at least we won't look as bad? /shrug

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Re: state of dps

Postby Arctagon » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:32 am

shinryu wrote:Well no need to worry about Spriests and Boomkins anymore, they've just gotten the nerfhammer.

Yes, they were nerfed big time. /sarcasm

I will keep an eye on RaidBots over the next weeks to see how things settle. Then it will be easier determining where we truly stand in this patch.

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Re: state of dps

Postby shinryu » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:42 pm

Drezleith wrote:
shinryu wrote:Well no need to worry about Spriests and Boomkins anymore, they've just gotten the nerfhammer.

Yes, they were nerfed big time. /sarcasm

I will keep an eye on RaidBots over the next weeks to see how things settle. Then it will be easier determining where we truly stand in this patch.

I dunno, the moonkin seemed pretty annoyed when it was 6% instead of the current 10%...Spriests I dunno anything about, but eh.

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Re: state of dps

Postby Arctagon » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:27 am

shinryu wrote:I dunno, the moonkin seemed pretty annoyed when it was 6% instead of the current 10%...Spriests I dunno anything about, but eh.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about patch 4.0.6. Both were buffed quite a bit, but afterwards I noticed in a hotfix thread that both of them were nerfed somewhat. Don't know how much the nerfs will affect them in raids, but I bet they still are amongst the best since they were topping the charts even before the patch (in which they were buffs, as I said).

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Re: state of dps

Postby Alaron » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:32 pm

Just a caveat, for those of you watching WoL parsers like raidbots and stateofdps...Buffs will show up quickly, because a bunch of people will set new records. Nerfs will take a couple weeks to show up, as you have to wait until the old records get purged (2 weeks).

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Re: state of dps - Paranoia Post

Postby guerron » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:44 am

Raidbot Feb 18
DPS HEAL-SPEC TANK-SPEC CLASS
1. Spriest (HEAL) 26228 HEAL DD PRIEST
2. Moonkin (HEAL/TANK) 25957 HEAL TANK DRUID1
3. Unholy (TANK) 25537 DD TANK DK
4. Surv-Hunter (PURE) 25491 DD DD HUNTER
5. Destro-Lock (PURE) 24923 DD DD LOCK
6. Assa-Rogue (PURE) 24889 DD DD ROGUE
7. Fire-Mage (PURE) 24536 DD DD MAGE
8. Enhance (HEAL) 23406 HEAL DD SHAMAN1
9. Ret (HEAL/TANK) 23021 HEAL TANK PALA
10. Fury (Tank) 22972 DD TANK WARRIOR
11. Feral (TANK/HEAL) 22792 HEAL TANK DRUID2
12. Ele (HEAL) 22566 HEAL DD SHAMAN2

When I first read the patch notes for ferals I thought it was a case of pushing druids more into tanking or healing. But as Raidbot shows it is more of "You have one viable spec fpr each role possible". Cats have become the Boomkins of LK.
Really shafted are Warriors (aka wait for the last raid-tier), shamans and paladins, when it comes to raid-dps. Of course, cat plays so different from boomkin, it could be a different class, but to the developers it may not be the most pressing problem. I do not assume that cats can be as successful as raid-dps as in LK. Let's wait for 5.0 ...

P.S.: Sorry my elaborate table was eaten by the forum...

Edit: Alternate specs which do not change melee/ranged element of dps are not shown

Why they use any development-time to push marksman-hunters is beyond me

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Re: state of dps

Postby morphiusrt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:24 pm

It's pretty crazy that a feral is 4k dps behind #1. I think all classes should very close togther when it comes to dps. ofc mechanics would make the differences but overall should average out so classes don't have to be sit for a lot of fights.

Are there really any fights that favor feral/other melees atm?

In terms of AOE i don't think we are completely horrible (try a enhance shaman) on Halfass w/ whelps I use berserk/swipe spam, usually only class beating me is a demo lock (no mages in guild).

I definitely don't like where this is going seems like we are going to be the red-headed stepchild of dps (ie. sub rogue, combat rogue, bm hunter). Its funny how those specs aren't soley just dpsing specs.

Druid - Feral Cat 17914

Death Knight - Frost 17587 (loaded with Pvp based abilities)
Warlock - Demonology 17492 (leveling based)
Rogue - Combat 17150 (3 button spam, no one good plays it)

Mage - Frost 15534 (loaded with Pvp based abilities)
Warrior - Arms 14880 (Pvp based)
Mage - Arcane 13862 (people that play it must suck)

Hunter - Beast Mastery 13284 (leveling based)
Rogue - Subtlety 12083 (loaded with Pvp based abilities)



Well good for me my GM asked me to go Boomkin as I will be raiding Boomkin for now on unless I feel I have some advantage as a feral (which I don't see any fights where that is the case).

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Re: state of dps

Postby Beanna » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:19 am

I personnaly still do pretty well on fights with multiple targets like Cho'gall where I can full dot the boss before switching to the add , applying dots to him too, then back to the boss, etc. We have a very good mobility with cat form, sprint, FC, and that makes the difference. Also, the fight is pretty long and we can use about three Berserker.
On the other hand, our DPS is not brilliant when the fight is more simple.

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Re: state of dps

Postby morphiusrt » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:57 am

One other thing.

Last night raided boomkin for the first time and it is a lot of fun, one thing that I took for granted, movement speed omg I'm slow now. I'm used to being the last one to leave the boss and the first one to the adds now I just look like a douche when adds are almost dead before I get on them.

I still have some things to get used to but overall am very happy with boomkin. DPS was good for my first day #2 behind the S preist on magmaw and omnitron. With some practice and gear I think I can take him, not to mention he gets DI the whole time.

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Re: state of dps

Postby shinryu » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:02 am

morphiusrt wrote:One other thing.

Last night raided boomkin for the first time and it is a lot of fun, one thing that I took for granted, movement speed omg I'm slow now. I'm used to being the last one to leave the boss and the first one to the adds now I just look like a douche when adds are almost dead before I get on them.

I still have some things to get used to but overall am very happy with boomkin. DPS was good for my first day #2 behind the S preist on magmaw and omnitron. With some practice and gear I think I can take him, not to mention he gets DI the whole time.

Definitely use a movement boosting enchant on your boots (probably the mastery one would be the best), at the very least you'll feel less slow. But yeah, whenever I try playing Boom nowdays, it just seems so damn slow compared to how you can zip around as cat.

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