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Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Face-rippin fun.
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Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby Beanna » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:00 pm

Hi everybody!

I am currently a leather worker and following the changes to the Synapse Springs I wonder if I should become an engineer.

Let me explain: I know that the Synapse Springs do not provide more stats than other professions (80 agi) but the cooldown of 1 minute can easily be coupled with our Tiger's Fury (whitout the glyph) which often precedes the refresh of dots, which dots therefore will benefit every minute of 480 agility in addition to the extra damage boost of Tiger's Fury... This would create very powerful dots which could therefore make this profession more attractive and as Tiger's Fury gives a lot of energy, we can use many skills that will benefit from the Synapse Springs buff.

I don't really know if this periodic buff is better than flat 80 agility now that our dots have taken a smaller part of our damage and I wonder if some of you think that engineering can outperform other professions or if it's not worth changing.

Thank you for your help!
Beanna

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby track_01 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:15 pm

that is what i was wondering too.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:53 am

I swapped out JC for Engi because of this as soon as the patch hit. I have the glove enchant macro'd to my TF so it gets used every other TF....typically the ones where I am refreshing rake.

I have always liked Engi anyway, love all the other little gadgets.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby felhoof » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:24 pm

TF is a special snowflake; synapse springs is not. Or basically synapse springs falls under the general category of stat buffs, which includes trinket procs, pots, shouts,etc.

All of these are applied dynamically to dots. Which means that while they're up, the dot is stronger. While they're down, the dot is not. They are not like TF.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby Dabeasty » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:29 am

Tis a good point.

Still like to macro this to my TF...timing is perfect (without TF glyph) since every other TF you pop will engage your Synapse Springs. Also means you always have energy to burn during your Springs window.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby Golle » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:12 am

felhoof wrote:TF is a special snowflake; synapse springs is not. Or basically synapse springs falls under the general category of stat buffs, which includes trinket procs, pots, shouts,etc.

All of these are applied dynamically to dots. Which means that while they're up, the dot is stronger. While they're down, the dot is not. They are not like TF.


Got any source on this? Afaik, all our buffs keep the stats at the time of application for the entire duration.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby felhoof » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:39 pm

Got any source on this? Afaik, all our buffs keep the stats at the time of application for the entire duration.
Huge amounts of testing from the community shows this. It's very easy to test yourself; simply refresh rip without any procs or anything for a minute (this is easily done with just wearing nothing on a lower-level dummy) and then do it again with something that procs like a trinket. Or heck, the simplest simplest way is to drink a potion during a rip and watch the DPS go up.

Anything with an agility, AP, strength or other stat increase will increase the value of the dots dynamically. So far the only thing that DOESN'T work this way is TF; TF only gets applied at initial application, refresh, and refresh from FB.

And to be clear this (the non-TF behavior) is how all classes currently work. It would be weird if Cats were different than every single class. There might be some odd trinket out there that somehow boosts bleeds at application but so far no one knows of it. I suspect that anything that gives a generic boost to damage would do that, but there simply aren't that many abilities that do so.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby Beanna » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:33 am

So I did some tests today, just before changing my professions, wanted to be sure.
I used the +912 agi PvP proc trinket. Just applied a 5cp Rip and Rake on the dummy, just auto-attacking till the trinket procs. When the buff appears (+912 agi) the ticks of Rip didn't change at all. Just before Rip fades I canceled the buff to see any changes ; the ticks of Rip and Rake remains exactly the same.

Test 1 :
Rip and Rake on dummy. Trinket procs -> no damage changes


02:54:34 : Rake 5566
02:54:36 : Rip 5767
02:54:37 : Rake 5566
02:54:38 : Rip 5766
02:54:39 : Beanna gains Surge of Conquest (+912 agi)
02:54:40 : Rip 5766
02:54:40 : Rake 11466 (Crit)
02:54:42 : Rip 5767
02:54:43 : Rake 5566
02:54:44 : Rip 11879 (Crit)
02:54:45 : Surge of Conquest (+912 agi) fades
02:54:46 : Rip 5766
02:54:46 : Rake 11466 (Crit)
02:54:48 : Rip 5767
02:54:50 : Rip 5766
...

Test 2 :
Apply Rip and Rake while trinket procs -> no damage changes after the buff fades


03:00:29 : Beanna gains Surge of Conquest (+912 agi)
03:00:40 : Rip 13367 (Crit)
03:00:42 : Rip 13366 (Crit)
03:00:42 : Rake 13287 (Crit)
03:00:44 : Rip 13366 (Crit)
03:00:46 : Rake 13287 (Crit)
03:00:46 : Rip 13367 (Crit)
03:00:48 : Rip 6489
03:00:48 : Rake 6450
03:00:49 : Surge of Conquest (+912 agi) fades
03:00:50 : Rip 6488
03:00:52 : Rake 6450
03:00:52 : Rip 6489
03:00:54 : Rip 6489
03:00:54 : Rake 6450
...


Did the same with Key to the Endless Chamber.

03:14:51 : Beanna gains Final Key (+1710 agi)
03:14:55 : Rip 14499 (Crit)
03:14:58 : Rip 14500 (Crit)
[...]
03:15:06 : Final Key (+1710 agi) fades
03:15:07 : Rip 14500 (Crit)
03:15:09 : Rip 14500 (Crit)
...

Also tried on my Warrior and my Shadow priest with two activated trinkets and obtained exactly the same results so I definitely think the dots are not dynamically modified but kept the stats they had at the time they were applied.
All this to say that Synapse Springs are totally worth it!

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby Tikrin » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:14 pm

This is actually pretty interesting. At what one point, I know our bleeds were dynamically scaling. They must have fixed it without even a hot fix mention, but I do remember at the beginning of Cataclysm that there were complaints of people popping out and casting tranquility, only to have their bleeds take a major bash for it.

Synapse Springs would be the same thing as a static +80 agility if used everytime off cooldown. It would definitely make dps increase during berserk, but wouldn't it be sort of like waiting for Tiger's Fury to come off CD before applying a new rip/rake?

It would be very nice to see some calculations on it. I had engineering in Vanilla/BC, and have started to miss it some since I dropped it. It'd be a nice reason to switch back.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby felhoof » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:58 pm

Huh. That's a bug then; that wasn't the way it had been working and it wasn't the way they said it was intended to work. Interesting.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby CaptainCub » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:11 pm

Synapse Springs often results in the "A more powerful spell is already active" message when you want to clip Rip before switching adds (V&T, Magmaw HC, Maloriak HC, Nefarian come to mind), so it's not always a dps increase vs other profession perks. So I wouldn't change professions solely because of Synapse Springs, engineering has other tools up its sleeves though, like the failing rockets that kill you in a bg or send you flying in orbit anywhere else, hence the usefulness of the parachute cloak enchant :)

Felhoof wrote:Huh. That's a bug then; that wasn't the way it had been working and it wasn't the way they said it was intended to work. Interesting.

It's not a bug and has never been so. Our DoTs have never changed dynamically with AP. On the other hand, 4.01 brought an unfortunate behavior that had us lose all mastery bonuses to an already applied bleed when shifting out of form. Our DoTs were dynamic in that regard only. This has been fixed since then which tends to disprove the idea that it was ever intended behavior.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby ShmooDude » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:12 pm

Tikrin wrote:This is actually pretty interesting. At what one point, I know our bleeds were dynamically scaling. They must have fixed it without even a hot fix mention, but I do remember at the beginning of Cataclysm that there were complaints of people popping out and casting tranquility, only to have their bleeds take a major bash for it.


That's a side effect of how feral mastery worked.

At launch, cat mastery functioned like mangle, ie it was treated like a "buff" that had to be active to get the affect (just like mangle has to be active to get the affect, you can Rip with Mangle not on the boss then Mangle before the first tick and still get the full 30% bleed buff). The only positive side effect of this is you could buff bear bleeds (however pitiful).

Blizzard however changed that at some point and now it works on application.

There was a note about it either as a hot fix or a patch note.

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Re: Synapse Springs and Tiger's Fury

Postby Tikrin » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:46 pm

ShmooDude wrote:
That's a side effect of how feral mastery worked.

At launch, cat mastery functioned like mangle, ie it was treated like a "buff" that had to be active to get the affect (just like mangle has to be active to get the affect, you can Rip with Mangle not on the boss then Mangle before the first tick and still get the full 30% bleed buff). The only positive side effect of this is you could buff bear bleeds (however pitiful).

Blizzard however changed that at some point and now it works on application.

There was a note about it either as a hot fix or a patch note.


Ah, it makes sense. I remembered for a little while Vengeance would carry over to Cat Form, and they fixed that. In the end, nothing really changes on it for me though. It never prevented me from brezzing, innervating, buffing, etc. Just always thought my dps dipped a little bit. Good to have that cleared up.

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