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Patch 4.1 discussion

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Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Arctagon » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:01 pm

Patch 4.1 has hit the PTRs (it has, right?) and is full of surprises ... even for Feral Cat Druids! ... Okay, while there may not be a direct change to our spec and DPS (so far), there are at least a few interesting changes nonetheless.

First of all, Blizzard are finally applying the socket change to the epic agility gear from LW. It's on high time, although a bit late. Those gear pieces are not very relevant any longer with a new gear tier coming up.

What I find the most interesting so far is the fact that all non-damaging interrupts in general will now always hit, and this includes Skull Bash. Now we can be viable interrupters without shitting all over our DPS!

What do you think about how the patch looks so far? Discuss.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:56 am

Our interupt is still crazy expensive without the PVP gloves.
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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Arctagon » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:36 am

That's indeed still a problem, but I think it's at least good they changed it to be a guaranteed hit. Any change to Feral Cat DPS at all is something to rejoice at these days (sadly enough).

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:10 pm

Many are complaining that our interupt has a delay do to "travel time" I don't mind this if we are at range. It makes since and is realistic(funny I would like that in a fantasy game). BUT if you are within melee range there should be no delay.
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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby felhoof » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:30 pm

What's funny is that this was the behavior for most of 4.03 by accident; skull bash couldn't miss. They fixed that in a bugfix. Then decided that it was good behavior like taunt missing going away and are bringing it back.

But as long as it costs 1/5th of the energy and has a travel time, it'll never be a good option. Cats could really use a glyph of skull bash that removes the charge but also makes it cost almost no energy.

The notion that aoe damage is going to be revisited is interesting. Between the arpen nerf and the general nerf of all aoe abilities cats got hurt very hard in this, and like Alaron mentioned multidotting is much less effective now that bleeds have been nerfed.

Sadly, I suspect we can't expect any big changes to ferals in this patch and will have to wait to 4.2 or later. I'd really like to see one of the marquee abilities from 80-85 become actually good for ferals. Stampeding roar is meh, wild mushroom is useless...what did ferals actually get this expansion?

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:46 pm

What do you mean we got nothing this patch!?!?! We got..................ummmm..............Ferocious Roar? LOL. I still love my kitteh. I love running faster then others. I love shapeshifting. Love flight form. Love the concept of fighting in cat. Just wish i didn't feel like the remaining devs don't care about us or just don't know wtf to do with us.

On another note
Do you wonder if the Devs look at people like Yawning and Alaron and just think F____ You! I went to college and stuff and i am smart at game design and some player isn't going to tell the great me what im doing wrong.
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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby felhoof » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:00 pm

I don't think the devs look at folks like Yawning and tell him to F himself or anything of the sort. The devs and designers frequently talk with members of the community in various ways, especially if they've proven themselves to be non-reactionary, level-headed and reasonable.

Yawning didn't get there. He probably would have at some point, but between getting banned multiple times and being a bit less political than he should have, chances are most devs didn't get to look at him.

The other thing is popularity. Feral DPS is very, very unpopular in the grand scheme of things. There are far more people who play warriors or advocate warriors than there have ever been feral dps advocates, and far better players out there who really are big into things aren't playing feral DPS. This is why (or one of the reasons why) bears got some attention but cats didn't recently; tanks are important, most ferals play some form of tank as at least their secondary spec, and historically the feral has been the druid tank spec, not the dps spec.

That isn't to say that it doesn't feel like ferals are getting completely ignored or that they weren't well-designed this expansion. They weren't. Ferals did not get a significant amount of changes, their talent tree stayed fairly stable through the beta, the rotation and abilities went almost completely unchanged, etc. Ferals were in a decent place and as a result didn't get the attention that (for example) paladins received again or warlocks or mages got. Or heck, even boomkin got.

And as a result, the spec just didn't change.

Again, ferals not having fun is something they can't really take action on, at least in a blue post. They get 'we're not having fun any more' all the time. They can and should filter that out; most often people not having fun with their toon has nothing to do with the toon and everything to do with what's happened to the player. They can look at things like bugs, issues with balance, concrete parses and the like; that helps a lot. And they can look at suggested fixes, though too often the suggested fixes are kind of insane in power or would have unforeseen consequences. So I don't really blame devs for what they've not done. Ferals aren't broken. They're not as interesting to play, but that's something that they tend to revisit in the midpoint of an expansion, not right after the first patch. They're not as powerful, but they're likely waiting for things to roll down the pipe to visit that one - and honestly, a better AoE would go a huge way towards making ferals more useful.

Still, the best thing to do isn't do what Yawning did - it's what posters on Alaron's blog did. Point out that using statistical modeling AND looking at parses week over week ferals are getting progressively less potent as they gear up and are consistently performing at or close to the bottom of fights, with one or two exceptions. That's a start. Do it dispassionately, do it with no real care, just point out the relative rankings and deltas of DPS on each fight type, then explain why you think this is the case, and what (in general) should be done about it.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Dabeasty » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:26 am

If you are EU based, I have posted some thoughts here

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ?page=1#11

Whilst it may be an exercise in futility, please feel free to lend your ideas, support.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:29 pm

@Dabeasty - I looked through the action priority list for the feral sims there, and based on the Mew sim results, it is not optimum. I don't know if that is a result of differences in the sim logic, or the script itself has room for improvement. When I have some time I will download the beta simc code and work on the script.

I mention this because the dps range is pretty close on a lot of the builds listed.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Goodmongo » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:54 pm

Yea wow what a buff. Increasing Stampeding Roar (SR for this post) by 2 seconds is such a big deal. And skull bash woot, not. Neither of these are any kind of dps increase and in fact offer very little for utility.

SR has a long CD which means once or twice per boss fight. Problem is 10 yard range and it doesn't stack. So that one other melee and the tanks get a speed buff. SR was actually supposed to be a PvP boost but the nerfs to shapeshifting and beserk killed any use for it. Gee look everyone I'm 60% faster sitting here while I'm rooted in place.

Problem with skull bash is the delay and energy cost. You either have to waste energy or risk not having 50 available during the 2 second window to use skull bash. This results in a DPS loss plain and simple.

As for the devs they might not say FU to Yawning and others but they sure as hell don't want to here anyone with influence and in depth knowledge complaining. See when Yawning said something was broke he had the math to prove it and back it up. That is a risk and threat to GC and the devs. It was that that got him his bans. If you read what he posted and saw the history of it you would know that it wasn't because he was being politically incorrect.

And in response to the not having fun comment, how can you say that? What I mean is that ferals WERE fun at one time. So to claim that it is beyond their capability to make them fun is silly. Just not making most of these changes would have kept them fun. Its not like they wer never fun and Blizzard mad an attempt to correct that but failed. What happened is the changes by Blizz removed the fun factor. Its almost like you are trying to lay the blame at the feet of players like Yawning and not the real culprits - Blizzard.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Monopedia » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:29 pm

One thing on this new Stampeding Roar, since 4.0.6 I have been using a macro for Darkflight with Stampeding Roar and with the 4.1 changes to Stampeding Roar this makes it all the better imo. Stamp Roar is still lacking, especially from a utility PoV but 60% (additional 30% when in cat) + 40% from Darkflight is pretty powerful stuff - Mid encounter it can hurt sometimes with its huge energy cost but I have found a few uses for the macro, pve, pvp and just for travel when indoors. End of the day its not amazing, but it has its uses, though it is only once race can gain the benefit from.

I'm far from the type of person that thinks balance issues from all angles, so 'improvements' I think of are not perfect and would be in need of tweaks themselves, but it would be nice if Stampede (the talent) gained some new benefit to it to improve Stampeding Roar by allowing it to break all forms of CC or at least make us immune to them for the duration - it is a stampede after all, not exactly easy to stop. It has been suggested by a few people before. If it is that Overpowered make Stampeding Roar and Berserk unusable at the same time, that way you are not immune to CC while having a huge damage boost.

I'm still confused as to why Skull Bash has a baseline of 1 minute cooldown while paladins (all specs) get their interrupt as a baseline 10 seconds, the extra range just seems like a poor excuse for the cooldown difference, considering Resto and moonkin would have to get themselves almost in to melee range and then shift to cat/bear anyway. I'd like to see the 10% extra mana cost debuff removed from Brutal Impact, it is nice that it is something different but I don't really think it plays such a huge role that its the difference between a win and a loss in pvp for feral, and have it reduce the energy cost of Skull Bash by 5 per point instead - then change the Feral PvP glove bonus to the mana cost increase debuff.

On the plus side, Prowl has a new icon Image
http://static.wowhead.com/images/wow/ic ... _prowl.jpg

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby shinryu » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:31 pm

I thought Stampeding Roar didn't work on the druid itself, just the allies?

Either way, still an utterly worthless spell. I don't think anyone in my guild even knows it exists lol.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Monopedia » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:50 pm

Yeah, works on the Druid - just for Feral cat form you don't really notice it due to it being 40% (10% more than feral Swiftness). It really is not worthless, it is just extremely situational and needs changing just enough to make it useful to the point of being a little more common in its use.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:39 pm

I really wish they would extend the range on it. Just seems buggy if the person right next to you is going to get it or not.
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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby shinryu » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:15 pm

Monopedia wrote:Yeah, works on the Druid - just for Feral cat form you don't really notice it due to it being 40% (10% more than feral Swiftness). It really is not worthless, it is just extremely situational and needs changing just enough to make it useful to the point of being a little more common in its use.

Ah that's why, I always assumed this stacked with movement increasing effects...guess it doesn't lol. No wonder I never noticed anything...

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Monopedia » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:13 pm

Feral Swiftness now causes Dash and Stampeding Roar to have a 50/100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects from affected targets when used.


Taken From Wowhead http://www.wowhead.com/blog=184160/patc ... ll-changes

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Goodmongo » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:21 pm

If true that would be the first piece of good news in months for ferals. I can't get to the details from work so while positive I do want to see the fine print on how it works.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Monopedia » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:24 pm

Oh and Stampeding Roar no longer breaks Stealth.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby shinryu » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:45 pm

Does that break snares/roots? If so yay, if not, not worth my time.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Monopedia » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:51 pm

The wording is as if it breaks Roots, Stampeding Roar will also break friendly targets (in range) of their root debuffs too.

EDIT:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=97985
Feral Swiftness Clear
Removes snares and roots.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:48 pm

Official notes are out. Both Dash and Sampeding Roar will break roots.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/160430/patch-41-public-test-realm-notes-march-3

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby shinryu » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:04 am

Well, this is very enjoyable news, even if they have plenty of time to change it >.>

But yes, this is a step in the right direction, even if we're getting stuck with the current raid tier for even longer >.>

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Goodmongo » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:23 am

So does that give us 3 ways to break roots/snares etc? (Dash, SR and the trinket)

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby felhoof » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:29 pm

s for the devs they might not say FU to Yawning and others but they sure as hell don't want to here anyone with influence and in depth knowledge complaining. See when Yawning said something was broke he had the math to prove it and back it up. That is a risk and threat to GC and the devs. It was that that got him his bans. If you read what he posted and saw the history of it you would know that it wasn't because he was being politically incorrect.
I'd be really careful about assigning motive when none is presented. There have been plenty of theorycrafters out there who have challenged the values that blizzard has presented and done so very, very successfully; community members have an absurdly long history being able to provide data and feedback to blizzard and have that acted upon in a positive way.

My gut feeling is that there is no internal feral advocate the way there have been rogue or warrior ones, so the quality of life is not nearly as touched upon. It's a low-pop spec as well, so they don't get a ton of feedback by looking at things. And the primary advocates of the spec are high-placed (Astrylian talks to devs regularly) but don't tend to play cats nearly as much as they do bears.

That isn't to say Yawning's ban was deserved - but it's very, very unlikely that devs have anything to do with his banning. Don't mistake incompetence for conspiracy. Some times people fuck up. people fuck up.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Dabeasty » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:15 am

With a new Prowl icon and a slimmed down Troll flight form model, I am wondering how long it will be before they nerf us....this is going to leave us OP clearly :)

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