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Patch 4.1 discussion

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Darkrealm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:17 am

I see it a bit like this:

Deep Inside Blizzard HQ

Developer 1: "Ahhh... 4.1 is almost ready for release, it's been a lot of hard work but we're almost there"
Developer 2: "yes all the major issues have been ironed and it looks perf..... oh wait whats this on the floor, under the filing cabnet.... OH CRAP... we forgot about feral cat AoE DPS and how much it sucks!"
Developer 1: "What are we going to do! we need to get the release version onto the PTR for release at end of month!"
Developer 2: " Don't worry there arent a lot of feral cats out there to piss off, lets just throw em a bone and hope its stops the QQ"
Developer 1: " Sounds good, what do you have in mind"
Developer 2:"Ummmm..... what AoE abilities do cats have"
Developer 1: "Lets see.... I think they have some swipe thingy"
Developer 2: "oh really.... let buff that then"
Developer 1: " yeh, ok, sounds easy.... how much should we buff it"
Developer 2: "lets double it, that should'nt completly unbalance the game as we know it, propelling Cats to the top of the damage meters on AoE fights, thus producing even more QQ from other classes"
Developer 1: "agreed, throw it in there"

Puurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Qbear » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:55 am

haha good read, was talking to my guild master a hunter about this change he says hunters multi-shot damage is getting doubled as well. I know warriors ww cd is being pretty much cut in half if it connects on enough targets which, well, will double it...

Patch 4.1 should be named the Wrath aoe fun patch I know I'm not complaining. Hopefully Firelands has lots of Multi-mob packs I can spam one button and afk for.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Darkhoof » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:33 am

Qbear wrote:haha good read, was talking to my guild master a hunter about this change he says hunters multi-shot damage is getting doubled as well. I know warriors ww cd is being pretty much cut in half if it connects on enough targets which, well, will double it...

Patch 4.1 should be named the Wrath aoe fun patch I know I'm not complaining. Hopefully Firelands has lots of Multi-mob packs I can spam one button and afk for.


perhaps theres alot of AoE encounters in za/zg and firelands :P

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Darkrealm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:51 am

Darkhoof wrote:perhaps theres alot of AoE encounters in za/zg and firelands :P


Well, Firelands is not until 4.2 by which time the nerf-hammer will have hit.

In any case, I keep reading in various places that AoE was supposed to be playing a lesser role in the game....

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Fate » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:35 am

April 13th, not 1st, yes?

Well, gee, guess I'm tanking the adds then.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Darkrealm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:16 am

Fate wrote:April 13th, not 1st, yes?

Well, gee, guess I'm tanking the adds then.


Did you mean as a cat?

Kitties will need to reforge to dodge prety soon.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Darkhoof » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:19 am

Darkrealm wrote:
Darkhoof wrote:perhaps theres alot of AoE encounters in za/zg and firelands :P


Well, Firelands is not until 4.2 by which time the nerf-hammer will have hit.


yea, i know, but they've said that 4.2 will come rather a short time after 4.1 (well have to se if its true or not).

i dont mind aoe encounters aslong as its not every damned pack(hello wrath)

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Fate » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:06 am

Darkrealm wrote:
Fate wrote:April 13th, not 1st, yes?

Well, gee, guess I'm tanking the adds then.


Did you mean as a cat?

Kitties will need to reforge to dodge prety soon.


Yeah, sadly our MT sucks at multi-target threat. I already have to hold back on, say, Halfus whelps...

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby spw » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:32 am

Darkrealm wrote:I see it a bit like this:

Deep Inside Blizzard HQ

Developer 1: "Ahhh... 4.1 is almost ready for release, it's been a lot of hard work but we're almost there"
Developer 2: "yes all the major issues have been ironed and it looks perf..... oh wait whats this on the floor, under the filing cabnet.... OH CRAP... we forgot about feral cat AoE DPS and how much it sucks!"
Developer 1: "What are we going to do! we need to get the release version onto the PTR for release at end of month!"
Developer 2: " Don't worry there arent a lot of feral cats out there to piss off, lets just throw em a bone and hope its stops the QQ"
Developer 1: " Sounds good, what do you have in mind"
Developer 2:"Ummmm..... what AoE abilities do cats have"
Developer 1: "Lets see.... I think they have some swipe thingy"
Developer 2: "oh really.... let buff that then"
Developer 1: " yeh, ok, sounds easy.... how much should we buff it"
Developer 2: "lets double it, that should'nt completly unbalance the game as we know it, propelling Cats to the top of the damage meters on AoE fights, thus producing even more QQ from other classes"
Developer 1: "agreed, throw it in there"

Puurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Awesome!

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Arctagon » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:46 pm

I think it was nice to know that Feral DPS isn't dead on their side, that we finally received some attention at all. This change will of course be far away from solving all the problems, but it's a good start. Let's see how long it takes before they nerf it again.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:18 pm

If the change stands, and one of the comments on Alaron's blog post is correct, then this change not only represents a way for us to die on AOE fights, but also a way to add a little complexity to the rotation as Swipe will replace Shred as a filler when combo points are already at 5.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Alaron » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:42 pm

This is true, and an indication that the change won't stay. AOE attacks are not supposed to do more single-target damage than ST attacks.

That said, I wish I was somewhere where I could play when 4.1 does come out (decently). Between the SD change and the Swipe change, I'd resubscribe just to mess around in 5-mans.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Sylvaneart » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:55 pm

OK i did testing on a target dummy naked except for weapon and UW. The proc did not affect swipe. Even though swipe is based off weapon damage and UW buffs weapon damage. Is this a bug? Is anyone else getting it?
Be sure to subscribe to The Fluid Druid RSS feed and follow me on twitter! @Sylvaneart

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Sylvaneart wrote:OK i did testing on a target dummy naked except for weapon and UW. The proc did not affect swipe. Even though swipe is based off weapon damage and UW buffs weapon damage. Is this a bug? Is anyone else getting it?

I will give this a try after raid tonight.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Alaron » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:28 am

It is my understanding that UW does not affect Swipe or Fury Swipes (even though it probably should).

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:23 pm

Now that the servers are back up I can confirm that UW proc's don't buff swipe in any way. After seeing this I may switch to Fluid Death during AOE fights like Meloriak.

As it is with a Glyphed Berserk + TF + swipefest on the green adds swipe is about ~10% of my damage. With being able to aoe the sludge now no reason to stick with the lower agi if the proc won't work.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby felhoof » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:43 pm

Fluid Death won't be all that great either on adds given that the stacking boost won't happen right away. Ideally you want a trinket that procs around once every 30-45 seconds and gives a huge boost during that time.

Essence of the Cyclone has a 1 min ICD, so that's a bit less than optimal - though it does provide crit, which is useful for swipe (compared to mastery). Prestor's Talisman would allow for more swipes in that time, but it has an even worse ICD (75 seconds apparently).

That being said, Fluid Death - even at the 380 agi - isn't going to beat 363 agi + 2100 crit every other time. Not on adds. Essence is going to be by far the best trinket until they fix unheeded warning.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Darkhoof » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:33 pm

wonder if its even possible to get confirmation if this is intended. it does not clearly state that its weapon base damage. so i would think it shoud be affected by UW procs :(

silly me always thought that uw did affect swipe.

unfortunately ill be out of wow for the next 8-10 days, could any of you perhaps post a ticket regardig this issue?

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby shinryu » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:59 pm

So some questions, would Swipe be more damaging in a general rotation under Berserk, or would Shred still pull ahead? And assuming UW doesn't affect Swipe (as seems to be the case), would Swipe be better than Shred during the ICD of UW?

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby felhoof » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:24 pm

o some questions, would Swipe be more damaging in a general rotation under Berserk, or would Shred still pull ahead? And assuming UW doesn't affect Swipe (as seems to be the case), would Swipe be better than Shred during the ICD of UW?
Mathematically berserk doesn't affect swipe as far as swipe vs. shred; if shred was better before, it'd be better during berserk. The only time this isn't true is during points where CPs are useless. If it's true that shred should be used below 5CP and swipe after 5CP, then berserk will get you to that point that much faster. If swipe was better, swipe would be better. During unheeded warning procs shred should always be prioritized (this is true anyway).

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:50 am

This will certainly be interesting to simulate. I will have to bug Yawning to provide an updated version of Mew with the Berserk and Swipe changes.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby tangedyn » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:01 am

Swipe won't be better than Shred.

Swipe scales at 670% weapon damage
Shred scales at 450% x1.2 (Rend and Tear) x1.3 (Mangle) = 702%

Shred also has a minor fixed dps component and costs less energy.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:05 pm

felhoof wrote:Fluid Death won't be all that great either on adds given that the stacking boost won't happen right away. Ideally you want a trinket that procs around once every 30-45 seconds and gives a huge boost during that time.

Essence of the Cyclone has a 1 min ICD, so that's a bit less than optimal - though it does provide crit, which is useful for swipe (compared to mastery). Prestor's Talisman would allow for more swipes in that time, but it has an even worse ICD (75 seconds apparently).

That being said, Fluid Death - even at the 380 agi - isn't going to beat 363 agi + 2100 crit every other time. Not on adds. Essence is going to be by far the best trinket until they fix unheeded warning.


As Cyclone is my other trinket along with UW swapping UW out for the Fluid Death would still give me 363 agi and the proc, + hit/mastery and 380 agi. I also know that I am still dpsing the boss right up until the add tank signals the all clear that its ok to get going on adds. Unless I am sitting doing nothing for 15 seconds the River of Death debuff is still going to be up.

Currently I only swipe during the green phase while there are still at least 6 adds up and Berserk is still going. That ends up being only about 30 seconds of the total fight. If that makes up 10% of my damage now, what will doubling it + being able to use it during each black phase? Until Uheeded Warning boosts swip I fail to see how it could come out on top of Fluid Death when swipe becomes that importent. This isn't for all fights, just ones that require some heavy aoe dps.

On a side note I went to test out what happens to swipe if we miss. Nomally all of our attacks get an 80% energy refund if we miss with them. Swipe does not do this. I tested it out on the dummies, even if all 3 attacks miss (which I did get to happen) still cost the full 45 energy. Having a little extra hit couldn't hurt in situations we are going to be doing a lot of swiping.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby felhoof » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:50 pm

Having a little extra hit couldn't hurt in situations we are going to be doing a lot of swiping.
This is true only to a point - remember that many adds aren't boss-level and the hit/expertise caps for them are significantly lower.

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Re: Patch 4.1 discussion

Postby Fate » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:26 am

Does this mean that swipe will beat Mangle, when we can't get behind, and are on full CP? (Al'akir, say)

(Also, going to make PvP interesting. The extra range, the direction independence, the occasional splash damage, and the ability to dump an energy bar faster... versus the fact you can always use up spare CPs.)

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