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4.2 changes

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:05 pm

GoFB shouldn't make any difference anyways, didn't it get changed to just heal you in 4.2?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby CaptainCub » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:27 am

Konungr wrote:How did you come to this conclusion and what exactly do you mean by it ruling out the possibility of TF-Clipping Rip.

Simple, if you consistently use up 5CP to FB above 25% HP you no longer have them available to overwrite a weaker Rip with a TF'd one in between two regular refreshes. (while maintaining maximum uptime on Savage Roar and Rip)

shinryu wrote:GoFB shouldn't make any difference anyways, didn't it get changed to just heal you in 4.2?

I think his tests were made on live 4.1 realms.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Yawning » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:54 am

Searinox wrote:Let's leave Mew aside for a moment. Bottom line is I noted a 200 increase in dps which is not only a subjective claim, but even on paper if you replace 2 shreds with 2 FBs every 3 minutes, that's what you'll get. Can that be wrong in any way?


Second order effects play a huge part in figuring out if it's ever a good idea to use Ferocious Bite or not, which is also why, in 4.2 without 4T12 in the picture, the gains are not nearly as high as one would expect from naively comparing damage. To be specific, there's a subtle effect on Rip/SR, even if you play perfectly, and the tradeoff is not 2:1 (Well, Mew could manage a 2:1 tradeoff, but a human can't).

To illustrate here's some numbers (372 gear, 4.2 mechanics, BitW disabled, 360 sec, using Mew since I don't have a WoW account).

Not using Ferocious Bite at all, ever:
Code: Select all
DPS: 27194.62654 +/- 3.61157
Min/Max DPS: 24785.39722 / 30347.58333
StdDev: 582.69254

Savage Roar:
 Uptime: 92.76423%

Shred:
 Nr. Shreds: 108.48656

Rip:
 Uptime: 96.12917%


Aggressively using Ferocious Bite during Berserk:
Code: Select all
DPS: 27222.95832 +/- 3.65797
Min/Max DPS: 24724.16111 / 29592.68889
StdDev: 590.17914

Savage Roar:
 Uptime: 92.52844%

Shred:
 Nr. Shreds: 101.91256

Rip:
 Uptime: 95.7574%

Ferocious Bite:
 Nr. Ferocious Bites: 4.60291
 Average extra energy: 15.19408


Is trading ~6.5 shreds and some Rip/SR uptime for 4.6 Ferocious Bites worth it? Yes. Is it a huge gain? No.
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:04 am

I'm a little confused...despite the theoretical min and max dps being lower for aggressively using FB during Berserk, it's still the slightest of net gains over not using it at all on average?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Yawning » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:33 am

shinryu wrote:I'm a little confused...despite the theoretical min and max dps being lower for aggressively using FB during Berserk, it's still the slightest of net gains over not using it at all on average?


The min/max are outliers by definition. "Over the 100k samples that I looked at, the Simulator got really unlucky/lucky once and did X dps". In theory, if I left my computer running for long enough I'll see a case (regardless of rotation) where I do 0 dps, and likewise, I'll see a case (again regardless of rotation) where I do some unfathomable amount of damage (everything crits, every white swing procs clearcasting, the trinkets proc exactly at the correct moment).

I display them despite a considerable amount of luck being involved since it's sometimes nice to see roughly what kind of DPS you can pull if the stars shine on you, but paying attention to those values when figuring out if a given priority list is superior or not is incredibly flawed 99% of the time.
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:35 am

Ah ok, thanks for the explanation :D

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby dozzerr » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:35 pm

What will be the secondary stat priorities in 4.2? is haste going to become more important than mastery, or is it going to be close between them? and will exp/hit be important as well? i know now that they aren't that great and neither is haste, mastery is the best secondary stat we have atm. Just trying to get prepared with gems, enchants and reforges for when the patch comes out next week(hopefully).

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Yawning » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:57 am

dozzerr wrote:What will be the secondary stat priorities in 4.2? is haste going to become more important than mastery, or is it going to be close between them? and will exp/hit be important as well? i know now that they aren't that great and neither is haste, mastery is the best secondary stat we have atm. Just trying to get prepared with gems, enchants and reforges for when the patch comes out next week(hopefully).


Realistically? It doesn't make a difference. All of the stats are close enough in value to where, you could probably get away with randomly picking each semi competitive (so, anything but hit/exp past the cap and spirit) option and not see a noticeable difference unless you looked at a massive sample size, because the differences are rather minor.

Mastery loses some value, especially after you ditch 2T11, for a tank and spank. Haste increases in value once the patch hits especially if you have 4T12. I personally think that from a practical (human) standpoint, most attempts at coming up with a concrete valuation of haste will end up with a inflated value, primarily because it's dependent on how good you are about maintaining solid time on target and energy management.
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:31 am

At least getting hit/exp capped will be a lot easier with the increases in ilvl, whereas I still need to use some gems and an enchant for gloves to hit them both in my mix of 359s and 372s >.>

Especially expertise...that's a sore point as not much leather has it at all and the cap is a bit high, but then again no class specs except combat rogues have really wanted it so far in this expansion besides us now as well.

Speaking of hit/exp caps, does anyone know if they're going to bump up the requirements to hit them with 4.2? I remember the devs mentioning a long while back that with each new raid expansion they would be upping the requirements to hit them, yet I've heard nothing at all on the topic, so does anyone know if they're going to remain the same or not?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:33 am

I doubt very much at this point they will if they haven't said anything about it by now, and it never happened on the PTR.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby mekell » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:23 am

As far as glyph choices, are they staying the same in general (meaning Rip, Shred, TF)? Or has the berserk glyph moved up in value with the changes to berserk and the bonus?
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Lax » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:46 am

mekell wrote:As far as glyph choices, are they staying the same in general (meaning Rip, Shred, TF)? Or has the berserk glyph moved up in value with the changes to berserk and the bonus?

They buffed glyph of berserk from 5 sec to 10 sec, so the primary glyphs are now rip, shred and berserk. No competition.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Konungr » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:12 am

mekell wrote:As far as glyph choices, are they staying the same in general (meaning Rip, Shred, TF)? Or has the berserk glyph moved up in value with the changes to berserk and the bonus?



Berserk has been slightly better, depending on the fight, since last patch, IIRC.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby ellorien » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Quick question:

In the 4.2 thread on EJ, there's this paragraph:

This latest patch has brought all of the secondary stats quite close to each other. To my knowledge gearing setups that focus on haste, mastery, hit/exp cap, and balanced distributions all appear in simulations to be very similar in overall dps. So until further investigations find a more meaningful hierarchy of secondary stats feel free to set these up however you like. Do note that hit and expertise are clear favorites in AoE situations now that Swipe is worth using again. Also be aware that set bonuses will have a noticeable effect - losing 2T11 will reduce the value of mastery and the T12 bonuses will increase the value of non-mastery stats.


My question is, are the stats close to each other before or after losing 2T11?

If they were neck and neck while having 2T11, then mastery would be a bit behind after losing 2T11? Or if they were neck and neck after losing 2T11, then mastery would be a bit ahead still while having 2T11?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Cuer » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:54 pm

There are a couple interesting responses in the recent Ask the Devs - Damage Dealing Q&A (emphasis added).

Q: If encounters are not being designed with positional requirements and or other abilities (Shred, Backstab, Feral Charge on Al'akir, Killing Spree in general) in mind, why do we still have those requirements? It seems unfair in a competitive PvE environment to allow those very limiting requirements to exist if the encounters are going to be heavily punitive towards classes that have them. – Foxlore (NA/ANZ)

A: The main reason we have the positional requirement is to have a different vector along which to design abilities. Backstab without a directional requirement could probably just be folded into Sinister Strike. It’s a way to make abilities different from each other, in the same way we have ranged attacks vs. melee attacks, instant spells vs. cast time spells and physical damage vs. magic damage. Also consider that all melee should want to get behind a target, and it hurts all of their DPS when they cannot. We have also made the alternatives to the positional requirements much less of a DPS loss than they used to be. If you go into your Mangle rotation instead of your Shred rotation, your DPS will drop, but not catastrophically. Now there are some encounters where the positional penalty is just too extreme. In 4.2 we have the ability to make the “back” of a boss encompass 240 degrees, and we have done so for bosses like Magmaw, Sinestra and Ragnaros. Furthermore, there are fights where Killing Spree and Feral Charge just kill you. That obviously isn’t acceptable. We have manually added some safeguards to try and manually solve a few encounters, such as Magmaw, but even that isn’t bulletproof and we are investigating more robust and global solutions. But it’s technically challenging given the diversity of our encounters.


Q: What do you consider when looking at whether a class is doing too much or too little damage?

A: As you probably suspect, we have a simple counter that measures the number of forum posts on a given class and we buff or nerf accordingly.
Seriously though, we look at a lot of different measurements, which becomes the full-time job of several designers. Our three most powerful tools are doing predictive modeling for how classes will perform under various scenarios and with various levels of gear, actually testing these numbers using characters in the game world, and then measuring the numbers generated by actual players on PTR or live servers.
Remember that we have access to a number of tools not available to players. While theorycrafters have gotten very good at reverse engineering how our damage calculations work, there are still a few opportunities where they get it wrong while we can just peek under the hood to remind ourselves how a calculation is made. Secondly, it’s very easy for us to create a lot of characters with whatever gear we want and have them beat on whatever kinds of targets we want in a very controlled environment. We can also change any of the numbers to empirically test the outcome. Furthermore, we can automate character damage rotations to a much greater degree than macros can accomplish, which gives us an idea of the delta between theoretical maxima and more typical player performance (which includes things like human reaction speed, decision making and good old Internet lag).
The specific situation that the character is in matters enormously. Maximum sustained DPS is almost irrelevant in PvP when applying burst in controlled windows is king. Yet both numbers have a huge impact on the game and neither is more important than the other. In PvE, the specifics of an encounter can trump almost everything. We have very few Patchwerk-style fights these days, and sometimes we even buff or debuff characters directly as part of the encounter. Some specs are good on movement fights. Some do better when there is a lot of incoming damage. Some benefit from spreading dots. Some can shoot flying dragons. We tend to focus a lot of our balance effort on the current tier of raiding content, because that is what is most important to players, but even then we have to look at a wide variety of skill sets. We do look at scaling into future content, but we tend to obsess over it a lot less than players do, because we adjust classes quite often these days. We actually do read the forums a lot too, our own and all the others out there that you probably read, just to make sure there is nothing we’re missing. Our community team helps enormously in this endeavor, particularly in helping to funnel the feedback from players from Latin America, Europe and Asia. We’re in contact with expert gamers from around the world. We also all play the game a great deal and very often we personally catch a bug or something else that isn’t working quite right.
As an aside, this is the kind of question we were really hoping to get more of with this series. It’s open-ended, potentially interesting to a lot of different players, and not just a thinly veiled demand for buffs.

It's good to know they're thinking about these things, and adjusting as they can. That change to what counts as the "back" of a boss could be quite useful to cats and Rogues.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:29 pm

It is nice that they have that tech. It's really nice that they say "We tend to focus a lot of our balance effort on the current tier of raiding content, because that is what is most important to players, but even then we have to look at a wide variety of skill sets".

I kinda wish they would have you know fixed the current tier while it was still the current tier (IE Magmaw/Sinestra).

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Konungr » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:33 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I kinda wish they would have you know fixed the current tier while it was still the current tier (IE Magmaw/Sinestra).


No doubt.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Rarge » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:51 pm

It annoys me how their excuse for putting a positional requirement on Shred is just so it is "different".

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:13 pm

ellorien wrote:My question is, are the stats close to each other before or after losing 2T11?

If they were neck and neck while having 2T11, then mastery would be a bit behind after losing 2T11? Or if they were neck and neck after losing 2T11, then mastery would be a bit ahead still while having 2T11?

This is kind of a tricky question.

Right now in game Mastery is still king...in a stand still fight, with a perfect rotation. Stacking Mastery has the highest damage potential, but also with bad RNG (ie misses/dodges) can also be lower then average. A build with more hit and extertise can even the rotation out. The damage protential is lower then pure master but it won't dip as low on big target switching fights.

In 4.2 several things happened. First the strength nerf ended up lowering bleed damage. Then rake was changed to make the first hit actually to do full bleed damage instead of the weak melee hit it was doing. Then all of our melee attacks were buffed to give better scale better, but had base damage reduced to ensure we didn't scale to fast. Alaron did some testing which you can see on the front page that details what those buffs and nerfs will do with current gear.

When you finally give up 4p T11 to get 2p T12 (don't break 4p till you can get 2p) Mastery is going to lose a little more shine. Based on the numbers that Konungr has run that is about the point when Mastery will be about equal (some cases less) to...sigh just about every other stat. In the end not a huge amount is going to change reforging wise. Mastery and hit/expertise will still be useful for target switching fights, but really you should gear for what makes your rotation the most comfortable to you (be it haste, or master hit/exp, or what ever).

Time is going to tell when we start getting into these fights and getting the new gear. Most of this is guess work based on all the hard number crunching folks have been doing so I want to thank you all for your efforts to help the rest of us out.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:49 am

So here's a semi-random question...does anyone know how T12 will be purchased? I keep hearing people assuming that the helm and shoulder will again be a token drop, but I have not seen anything definitive on it, and a blue post I read a while back seemed to indicate to me that it wouldn't be (it went something along the lines of t11 still being annoying to get with the token, but that everyone should be in t12 by next raid). But yeah...I'm half-hoping Blizz learned from their mistake with this one and will make all pieces buyable this time, or at least have a buyout option, like 4k vp or something while having the token off a boss so it's at least still possible to get. Because it really annoys me to no end how rng completely screws up something as crucial as tier pieces (no one should have to spend 3/4ths of a raiding tier without it thanks to shitty rng), not to mention our token has the most possible classes on it thanks to lameass DKs, along with druid/mage/dk being some of the most played classes at that.

So yeah, tldr, anyone know for sure? Or will we all be surprised in a week?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Konungr » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:57 am

Helm, Shoulders: Tokens
Chest, Legs, Gloves: Valor Points.

That was the last I saw from MMO-C.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Aurea » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:48 am

dont forget the chance for legs and gloves to drop from the new pvp-boss in tol'barad

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby ellorien » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:18 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
ellorien wrote:My question is, are the stats close to each other before or after losing 2T11?

If they were neck and neck while having 2T11, then mastery would be a bit behind after losing 2T11? Or if they were neck and neck after losing 2T11, then mastery would be a bit ahead still while having 2T11?

This is kind of a tricky question.

Right now in game Mastery is still king...in a stand still fight, with a perfect rotation. Stacking Mastery has the highest damage potential, but also with bad RNG (ie misses/dodges) can also be lower then average. A build with more hit and extertise can even the rotation out. The damage protential is lower then pure master but it won't dip as low on big target switching fights.

In 4.2 several things happened. First the strength nerf ended up lowering bleed damage. Then rake was changed to make the first hit actually to do full bleed damage instead of the weak melee hit it was doing. Then all of our melee attacks were buffed to give better scale better, but had base damage reduced to ensure we didn't scale to fast. Alaron did some testing which you can see on the front page that details what those buffs and nerfs will do with current gear.

When you finally give up 4p T11 to get 2p T12 (don't break 4p till you can get 2p) Mastery is going to lose a little more shine. Based on the numbers that Konungr has run that is about the point when Mastery will be about equal (some cases less) to...sigh just about every other stat. In the end not a huge amount is going to change reforging wise. Mastery and hit/expertise will still be useful for target switching fights, but really you should gear for what makes your rotation the most comfortable to you (be it haste, or master hit/exp, or what ever).

Time is going to tell when we start getting into these fights and getting the new gear. Most of this is guess work based on all the hard number crunching folks have been doing so I want to thank you all for your efforts to help the rest of us out.


I see, thank you for the detailed explanation. I had tried to prepare for 4.2 by reforging to haste and hit/exp, but based on what you said it looks like it's too early to reforge out of mastery just yet.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:48 pm

Konungr wrote:Helm, Shoulders: Tokens
Chest, Legs, Gloves: Valor Points.

That was the last I saw from MMO-C.

Well I was more asking anyone on the PTR or if anyone has seen an official blue announcement, sure mmo-champ might say that...somewhere (where exactly, probably buried because I haven't seen it), but that doesn't make it necessarily true, especially since no one really seems to know, or what bosses tokens do drop off of if any. Just trying to see if anyone has definitive info...

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby felhoof » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:17 pm

Definitely the chest, gloves and legs are sold.

Not sure where the tokens drop from yet for the others. It's a very likely case that shoulders drop from Rag and Head from Fandral, but it's not absolutely set in stone. Ultimately it won't matter; the stuff is fairly easy and the offset pieces that you should be aiming for are not the head and shoulders.

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