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Confusion with stat values.

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Confusion with stat values.

Postby Drikto » Sun May 15, 2011 1:25 pm

I recently put my numbers into Mew, to see how I should be doing, what I should be pulling as far as DPS goes (And I match that), and to see if I've begun to favor haste over crit yet, but I looked at the stat values and to my surprise I saw crit as my least desired stat.

This here is my armory, aside from lacking the proper enchant on my gloves, I think you'll find mostly everything done well enough, aside from maybe using a 20 agi/20 hit gem for the 20 agi socket bonus in my leg and benefit from that extra 20 hit rating, but lets not go there.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/b ... kto/simple

Here are my stat values, according to Mew.

Haste - 0.9631~
Hit Rating - 0.9369~
Expertise Rating - 0.9292~
Crit - 0.8500~

Should I worry too much about Hit/Expertise/Crit, or just reforge crit/hit/expertise to haste?

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun May 15, 2011 1:44 pm

Just a heads up. 4.1 added a socket to your belt, so you have an empty slot to put another 40agi in.

As for mew did you run the simulation or the formulation?

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Leafkiller » Sun May 15, 2011 2:00 pm

At the risk of repeating myself yet again. The stat values in Mew only work within a 100 stat point range and do not give you insight into how to best gear your toon. Your best bet is to simply try different schemes and see which produces the highest overall dps score. Most of the time, I disable the RSV option when I use Mew - it slows it down a lot without providing any significant value in return. Also, moving haste and crit around will impact your dps by less the half a percent - RNG will move your dps in a range of +-10% - so you will likely not detect any impact on your dps from that.

I recommend you reforge in a way that makes your rotation easier to deal with based on your personal play style. Gone are the days in Wrath where we lived and died by arpen.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Drikto » Sun May 15, 2011 2:08 pm

Thanks for pointing that out Tinder, I don't remember reading the socket being added so I guess I never bothered looking.

And thanks Leafkiller for providing insight. I never read too deep into the RSVs, but I just thought I'd ask so I didn't end up hurting my dps.

But I suppose for tonights raid I'm going to mess around and go for hit/expertise cap and see how that works out for me, then spend the next raid night reforged into haste and see which yields better results.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Leafkiller » Sun May 15, 2011 5:05 pm

Keep in mind you that the numbers you get from a night of raiding can vary quite a bit - so you really can't judge if a particular setup is a dps loss or gain. What you can judge is how the rotation feels.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Beanna » Sun May 15, 2011 5:42 pm

The +20 Mastery socket bonus in the Sark is not worth sacrifying a +40 agi gem. ;)

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Drikto » Sun May 15, 2011 6:08 pm

I see your point Leaf, thanks for mentioning that, haha.

And Beanna, thats so obvious. I'm not entirely sure why I gemmed it that way, looking back. So thank you for pointing that out :p

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Qbear » Sun May 15, 2011 7:07 pm

Ha give it another couple weeks and I'll have an army of hit/exp capped kitties!

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Darkrealm » Sun May 15, 2011 8:55 pm

me being one of them after last nights raid. I was almost in kb smashing fury on V&T when I missed a TONNE of mangles on T not to menion missing the last Rip before take off of both dragons despite my furious spamming.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby shinryu » Sun May 15, 2011 11:05 pm

I miss ArPen in an odd way...

I probably won't bother trying to get to hit/exp cap myself personally, don't have Fluid Death (I have the VP, but am waiting on the 372 Cyclone so I can just pair it with UW and be done), and nothing else on my gear has hit really besides whatever random tier pieces I'm not remembering, so eh...now for 4.2 though, might be worth it just to stop the annoyance of having to button spam to get an ability to hit.

Along those lines though, out of curiosity, how is everyone else getting hit capped? I'm assuming everyone's just using FD and reforging their "worst" stat to hit and Exp? Especially since I can't think of any good pieces with Exp on it.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Suhmon » Sun May 15, 2011 11:22 pm

I remember like a month ago some poor druid posted on the WoW forums that he was switching to hit/exp cap to try it and since it only simmed to a 90dps loss, it seemed like a great idea. Poor guy got yelled at by like every druid. I felt really bad. Cause honestly, I had been thinking the same thing, just had been too lazy to reforge and try it. Definitely gonna try it this week though. I've been watching closely the last couple weeks and noticing almost all my problems and dps drops during fights have come because of unlucky miss strings. One miss can cause your whole rotation to be thrown off.

But yeah, about stat values, it's funny how lately there has been so much talk about them and everyone wondering what's best, when honestly if you reforge to your lowest stat from your highest stat (secondary stats that is, not agility) you'll probably see only like a loss of 100 dps on the sims in good gear. Something not even noticeable.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Qbear » Mon May 16, 2011 12:05 am

Yeah arm pen was awesome even more awesome was getting to gem haste after you got arm pen, crit, hit, and exp capped ah the good ol days.

Actually if you armory me I'm on Shattered Hand I still use what's pretty much being accepted as the BiS list. None of my Conclave pieces have Hit or Exp on them. I simply just reforged the hell out of my gear, often having to reforge out of mastery just to gain enough of a secondary stat to actually hit the cap. (armory isn't showing the belt, which is reforged haste into exp to gain the cap for me) Yeah on paper it's totally wrong to purposely lower mastery. However, I am ranking. I've gained 4 new top 100 feral parses in this set up.

Again not trying to brag at all just trying to display, with proof, how being hit and exp capped can remain up there with the theoritical way of doing things. Though careful posting on the WoW forums if someone thinks to chan what you say by attacking your profile page expect to get trolled.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby shinryu » Mon May 16, 2011 12:50 am

Qbear wrote:Yeah arm pen was awesome even more awesome was getting to gem haste after you got arm pen, crit, hit, and exp capped ah the good ol days.

Actually if you armory me I'm on Shattered Hand I still use what's pretty much being accepted as the BiS list. None of my Conclave pieces have Hit or Exp on them. I simply just reforged the hell out of my gear, often having to reforge out of mastery just to gain enough of a secondary stat to actually hit the cap. (armory isn't showing the belt, which is reforged haste into exp to gain the cap for me) Yeah on paper it's totally wrong to purposely lower mastery. However, I am ranking. I've gained 4 new top 100 feral parses in this set up.

Again not trying to brag at all just trying to display, with proof, how being hit and exp capped can remain up there with the theoritical way of doing things. Though careful posting on the WoW forums if someone thinks to chan what you say by attacking your profile page expect to get trolled.

I envy your gear sooo much...

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Qbear » Mon May 16, 2011 1:50 am

haha thanx I'm a nerd :(

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Drikto » Mon May 16, 2011 2:48 am

Ran hit/exp capped for H Conclave and the rest of H BWD tonight.

I gotta say, I definitely like every attack hitting my target. One thing I came across though was I was generating aggro faster than before, so I had to get used to that. But other then that, I've ranked 5 of the 6 fights we did tonight (Died early on H Atra). Very pleased with the way it feels.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby monxide » Mon May 16, 2011 4:02 am

I'd certainly recommend to give exp\hit caps a try, that brought me significant dps boost :D did like 26.2k on argalot, too bad had logs turned off, so i have my previous result rank 2 only :(

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Drikto » Wed May 18, 2011 2:24 am

Tonight I ranked 104 on Heroic Conclave, and 153 on Heroic Magmaw, the only two bosses we were able to do tonight (Drama/RL Issues).

First time I've ranked this deep in since I had to pick up adds on the first phase of normal Nef way back when, in cat spec.
Ranked 66th as a bear, was a good joke since I was DPS for that fight :o

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed May 18, 2011 3:25 am

I attempted going full hit/expertise tonight. I was pretty disapointed with the results. While my rotation was much smoother, I ended up doing about 1-2k less this week then last. I think the closest fight I saw was Twin Drakes. I only lost about 120 dps and about 600k damage.

A few months ago I had attempted to go to the hit cap for our second Omnitron (H) kill. Our interupters were failing so I stepped in to help out. I have a bit more gear now, but I found that once I crossed from about 600 hit to 900 hit that I lost about 2k dps on the fight. While it wasn't as drastic this time around, it was noticeble decline. I will keep this setup for the rest of the week to see what I do on Cho'Gall and Sinestra, but I have a feeling I am going to go back to about 600 hit and 7 expertise.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby monxide » Wed May 18, 2011 4:40 am

That's pretty weird though. Even tho i had no upgrades since last week, gettin reforged in the way Qbear did brought my dps up by a fair amount. Got 20ish on chimaeron heroic, bout 100ish on magmaw heroic, and pretty good dps on atramedes, but logs were turned off that pull :S
Not to mentition i had beat all my old records - got 5 rank on normals v\t, cho and rank 1 on maloriak :S Wish i could try those heroics, but our 10ppl raid lost 2 key healers, and healers from lfg is not something that helps passing hardmodes, lol.
And certainly hit\exp cap rocks on aoe heavy fights.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Qbear » Wed May 18, 2011 5:19 am

I was talking about all this with a resto shaman buddy of mine. It's funny if you were to armory him and knew a lot about resto shammies you'd immediately start asking him, "lawl, why do you use this and not this. Why do you reforge this way lol?!" However, in truth there's no one else I'd really want healing me on a new fight. He really said it best, his thoughts on the whole process is:

"Sites like Elitist Jerks and the things theory crafters create are how to do max dps (well he said hps) the problem is those guys can never really account for the millions of different play styles everyone has that play that spec. In the end you need to find out what you can do on your toon to generate the best output."

For me, I'm quickly realizing that being hit and exp cap generates me higher numbers. I'm not ranking top 10 on anything; however, I really shouldn't using what is by all definitions a lesser dps set up. Since I switched I do hold numerous top 50 ranks as well as a bunch of top 100 ranks almost to the point that I've ranked on every fight top 100. (Not quite there yet)

Timber is a beast with whats proper and I have a lot of respect for that. To be completely honest I wish I could sit here and say I generate my personal highest numbers using the theoretical top dps set up. However, I will never feel bad at using a set up that causes people to look at me funny when I get e-stalked on my server knowing that I can place amongst some of the top feral dps'rs in the world doing so.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Suhmon » Wed May 18, 2011 6:49 am

I got a bit of testing in tonight with hit/exp cap and had mixed results. One thing people need to keep in mind though is ranking in dps has as much to do with those around you as it does with yourself. You may or may not get proper buffs (DI, UF, whatever else) or you may. Your raid may pull low end dps and drag the fight out longer. Your tank may enjoy moving a boss at a bad time, cutting you off from fire. Or you may die from uncontrollable circumstances. So there are more to look at in your logs than just your rank to see if things have improved or not improved. Though I have to say, I do always check ranks after fights =P. Apparently our logger removed logs or something happened cause most of my recent ranks are all gone as are the logs. Didn't know that could happen.

But anyway, I also wouldn't really chalk up a few hundred dps as anything but RNG. You can go up or down a thousand or more dps just by boss positioning and good or bad luck. You may get a ton of OOC procs or almost none at all. Druids are very heavily influenced by RNG at times. It's gonna take a few weeks of testing to really get a handle on how it changes things. Like, for me, it didn't seem to make a lot of difference on magmaw, but I also have to jump on that fight and I misused berserk. But on VT, I was on pace for a 24k kill until a meteor bugged in the last 10% and killed me. So it seems on fights where you really need to get those refreshes up imediately, it's great. On other fights it's give or take. White damage has gone up though.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Qbear » Wed May 18, 2011 6:57 am

oh most definitely, especially fight time my god how moving from a guild that use to kill a boss in 8 mins to a guide that can kill it in half the time has sky rocketed my dps potential. Now if only I could get the DI before they nerf it to the ground (damn u floofles)

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby spw » Wed May 18, 2011 8:55 am

Qbear wrote:Yeah arm pen was awesome even more awesome was getting to gem haste after you got arm pen, crit, hit, and exp capped ah the good ol days.


Had a few STR/Haste gems in red sockets :twisted:

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed May 18, 2011 1:54 pm

Qbear wrote:Tinder is a beast with whats proper and I have a lot of respect for that. To be completely honest I wish I could sit here and say I generate my personal highest numbers using the theoretical top dps set up. However, I will never feel bad at using a set up that causes people to look at me funny when I get e-stalked on my server knowing that I can place amongst some of the top feral dps'rs in the world doing so.


You are way to kind. I can tell you for every time that I have ever ranked for a fight lots of stuff had to go right. Getting only a few slime hits on Chim, having little to no down time on Magmaw between adds, not getting targeted by lighting rod/flamethrower on Omi, getting luck with Nef's MC buff, and so on.

I can also assure you that I have never performed at my best with the top theoretical dps set. For me after we had gotten into 5 HM's finished I found that I was having a lot of trouble keeping my 4p bonus up. With the high amount of target switching that was required for most fights I thought I would play around with getting some more hit. For my personal use I found between 500-600 hit was my sweet spot. I pretty much ignored expertise so I had between 3-7 depending on how my upgrades were going. Also adjusting berserk times, and glyphs per fight depending on my guilds strat.

Both Qbear and Suhmon are correct that playstyle, RNG, and Boss time till death are all factors for us in DPS. For me I always try to adjust to my guilds strat to maximize our success. Some times this means my DPS gets a bump. Magmaw is a perfect example. I know that we can kill the first two bone warrior adds before the first head phase. This means I can have Berserk, TF, and a pot ready to go when we bring down the head and Bloodlust gets hit. With our speed of the kill I will have Berserk up for one more head phase in the fight. I also try if the bone warrior is dead before the head comes down to get a rip going on his body as well. Other times strats we do will kill my dps, but will assure us victory. We have always been a bit melee heavy. Lately our ranged dps has gotten better and is pulling even, but it still required some interesting strats for some fights that favor ranged. Omni for example the our whole raid melee included have to deal with slimes. Till the swipe change this sucked for my personal dps. What I did to help was to abuse Feral Charge to my advantage for quick combo points, but also so I could get a ravage up to hit the first ooze with. Also after pratice I got in the habit of refreshing rip before a target switch even if time wasn't out, or I had not enough combo points, it still came out as a DPS plus from just letting it tick and change targets. However most Omni feral top parses are kills below 6 minutes. We still take about 8 so I only get 2 maybe 3 berserks off (I can't on the pull due to threat issues).

To sum up, going full expertise/hit for me doesn't seem to end up being the best situation. Does this mean it's a bad way to go? No way. It's already a proven a success for Qbear, and others. I don't want my experience to prevent anyone from experimenting. I likely spend at least a 100 gold a week playing around my reforging and different sets. It's one of the thing I enjoy about feral is that I get to play around with spec's and gear. So by all means everyone play around till you find what works best for you.

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Re: Confusion with stat values.

Postby Leafkiller » Wed May 18, 2011 2:06 pm

A few weeks back I got Yawning to add min/max dps output to Mew - it is now the second line in the display (I don't know if the change is in the current public release of Mew, but it is part of the 4.2 test releases). If you look at that you will get an idea of the range our dps falls into. For example - I just did a quick run and got these numbers: dps 25128, min dps 22999, max dps 27703.

Now a little extra math. The standard deviation of my runs was 630. Assuming a normal distribution (which I think is the case with dps runs in Mew), this means that 68% of the runs were in the dps range of 24498 to 25758. That range is 1260 dps. 95% of all runs will be in the range of 23868 to 26388. Looking at the results that are between one and two standard deviations we see:

13.5% of my runs will be in the range of 23868 to 24498.
13.5% of my runs will be in the range of 25758 to 26388.

This is assuming that everything else is the same on all runs - the buffs don't change, the fight is exactly the same length (i.e. other players are magically adjusting their dps to yours higher or lower as needed), the tank never moves the boss out of range, lag is never an issue, and you execute an identical rotation every single time.

Mathematically, no matter what you do with your secondary stats, you are only moving the "Mew" needle a couple of hundred dps (that is a guess - I have not actually measured full hit/exp cap, only full hit cap which was never worse than 100dps on any of my tests).

Capping hit/expertise does lower the impact of RNG some. It will make the rotation feel more stable. It does not account for 2k swings in dps output. I suspect it is a little better on add and target switching fights, but I have not done testing to prove that (I have a few tests in mind to try to show that).

So - do not be fooled by your performance in any given week. RNG plays too large a factor. Reforge to whatever fits your play style. Some fights you will be really high and others really low - and that is simply how the WoW gods have designed the game.

And those top 10 parses on WoL? Well, in my example, 2.5% of the fights will be greater than 26388, and 1/10000 fights will be at 27703 - which is slightly more than 10% above the average dps output. If the entire raid as good RNG on a particular try - or the fight length is perfect (perhaps 3:30 for two Berserks) it can go even higher.

Just look at the RNG and fight lengths of the top two Argaloth fights: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... Cat_Druid/

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