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[2pT12] Fiery Claws

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[2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Reverie » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:48 pm

I've heard many different things about how this debuff works on an enemy target. I've read that the DoT is based on the initial hit, and all consecutive (relevant) strikes extend the duration of the damage the initial hit would've caused(1). I've read that a Shred/Mangle after the initial strike will reapply a new DoT based on that ability's damage(2). I've also read that the DoT rolls every time a new Shred/Mangle is done(3).

The following numbers are for the sake of simplicity.

Spell(dmg)(DoTdmg) Spell(dmg)(DoTdmg)
1.) Mangle(1000)(100) > Mangle(2000)(100)
2.) Mangle(1000)(100) > Mangle(2000)(200)
3.) Mangle(1000)(100) > Mangle(2000)(300)

If anyone can confirm exactly how this works (references would be nice), I'd be appreciative.

I did a very short test on a target dummy and it appears as though every Shred/Mangle reapplies a new DoT based on the "current" Shred/Mangle's damage, but I want to be sure. P:

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby shinryu » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:42 pm

It's supposed to work like Ignite, if that means anything...I don't have the 2p yet though :(

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Mihir » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:54 am

How it's supposed to work: Every hit of mangle/shred/maul leaves a 4 second dot that ticks every 2 seconds. The dot is unaffected by haste and cant crit, and is unaffected by anything that increases magical damage, like curse of elements. The total damage of the dot is 10% of the mangle/shred/maul that caused it, so 5% per tick.

If there was already a Fiery Claws dot on the target, damage left on that dot gets added to the new one.

It's a bit buggy at times tho, and does less damage than you would expect it to do:

[00:12:31.808] Mihir Shred Al'Akir 16756
[00:12:32.557] Al'Akir afflicted by Fiery Claws from Mihir
[00:12:33.823] Mihir Shred Al'Akir *31525*
[00:12:34.605] Mihir Fiery Claws Al'Akir 838
[00:12:34.605] Al'Akir's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[00:12:35.499] Mihir Shred Al'Akir 16548
[00:12:36.222] Al'Akir's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[00:12:36.629] Mihir Fiery Claws Al'Akir 2161
[00:12:38.569] Mihir Fiery Claws Al'Akir 2161
[00:12:40.572] Mihir's Fiery Claws fades from Al'Akir

When Fiery Claws got refreshed the first time, there was still a 838 damage tick left on the old Fiery Claws. With a 31.5k crit and a 16.5k hit, you would expect the next 2 ticks to do a total of 3.15+1.65+0.8 = 5.6k damage, or 2.8k damage per tick. But the observed damage was only 2.2k per tick :(

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Reverie » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:08 am

Ah, I see. So the damage is supposed to roll (though live seems to exhibit some formula otherwise).

I ran 3 more tests and confirmed the math just to be sure I understood what was going on and as you mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any real correspondence between one set of numbers and the next (beyond the first or second Shred, which usually seems to be exactly 10%). Here is one of the sets of results.

Code: Select all
                         ProperDMG(ticks)       ActualDMG        Actual%
Shred: 7547               754.7(377.35)            984           13.038
Fiery Claws: 492
Fiery Claws: 492
Shred: 7451               745.1(372.55)            826           11.086
Fiery Claws: 413
Fiery Claws: 413
Shred: 10188              1018.8(509.4)            954            9.364
Fiery Claws: 477 
Shred: 21908              2190.8(1095.4)           1780           8.125
Fiery Claws: 477
Fiery Claws: 889
Fiery Claws: 889
Fiery Claws: 890

Reverie's Shred hits Raider's Training Dummy for 7547 Physical.
Raider's Training Dummy is afflicted by Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 492 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 493 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Reverie's Shred hits Raider's Training Dummy for 7451 Physical.
Reverie's Fiery Claws is refreshed on Raider's Training Dummy.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 413 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 413 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Reverie's Shred hits Raider's Training Dummy for 10188 Physical.
Reverie's Fiery Claws is refreshed on Raider's Training Dummy.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 477 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Reverie's Shred hits Raider's Training Dummy for 21908 Physical.(Critical)
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 477 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Reverie's Fiery Claws is refreshed on Raider's Training Dummy.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 889 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 889 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 890 Fire damage from Reverie's Fiery Claws.
Reverie's Fiery Claws dissipates from Raider's Training Dummy.


It seems that Fiery Claws is incapable of including damage from three Shreds, resulting in skewed data for the rest of the "set" (meaning, until Fiery Claws falls off). I had a result showing something like:

Shred: 16000
Shred: 18000
FC: 800
Shred: 17000
FC: 1750

The second Fiery Claws damage should be 800+(1800/2)+(1700/2)=2550, however Fiery Claws only included damage from most recent two Shreds.

TL;DR: Hope Blizzard fixes 2piece.

[Edit 7.26] The above "code" combat text is from entering combat to leaving combat, though after running another test yesterday (and after seeing some additions to this thread), I found that "expected" FC damage and "actual" FC damage is relatively the same -- the margin of difference is not nearly what it was, consistently, given any random factors.
Last edited by Reverie on Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Crossbow » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:19 pm

Yes, it's rolling, so bonus damage from last mangle/shred is added to the remaining bonus damage of the any current DoT. Also note that duration seems to be extended to 6s in that case, and damage is split over 3 ticks instead of 2.

Reverie, it looks like your combatlog snippet was not the start of the fight and a DoT had already been applied - I mean, even the very first tick does not make any sense, while in my own combatlogs it's always tracing back to exactly 10% bonus damage.

From my experiments I can say that the 2T12 bonus is working a lot better than advertised. Actually, I've never seen it do less damage than it was supposed to do.

Fight: Shannox
  • Mangle damage: 289,990
  • Shred damage: 1,819,041
  • Expected Fiery Claws damage: 210,903 = 10% * (289,990 + 1,819,041)
  • Actual Fiery Claws damage: 223,235

Fight: Alysrazor
  • Mangle damage: 804,416
  • Shred damage: 1,968,849
  • Expected Fiery Claws damage: 277,326 = 10% * (804,416 + 1,968,849)
  • Actual Fiery Claws damage: 299,252

I made a small addon that tracks it all in real-time, and had a short test on the dummy:
01:52:39 FieryClawsTracker: Entering combat
01:52:38 FieryClawsTracker: Adding target 0xF130B63700009502 [Training Dummy]
01:52:38 FieryClawsTracker: + Shred: 15192
01:52:40 FieryClawsTracker: + Mangle: 15090
01:52:41 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 1010
01:52:43 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 1009
01:52:44 FieryClawsTracker: + Shred: 21912
01:52:45 FieryClawsTracker: + Shred: 25011 <-- This shred is actually applied to the Fiery Claws debuff at this point
01:52:45 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 1067 <-- But this tick still got off, so can be considered as bonus
01:52:47 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 1901
01:52:48 FieryClawsTracker: + Shred: 24540
01:52:49 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 2085
01:52:51 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 2085
01:52:53 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 2085
01:52:59 FieryClawsTracker: Leaving combat, preparing report...
01:53:02 FieryClawsTracker: Combat summary for [Fiery Claws]
01:53:02 FieryClawsTracker: * Target Training Dummy: 11242 (+1067)
01:53:02 FieryClawsTracker: Expected/Received: 10174/11242 Diff: +10%


When I spammed Shred during a berserk, the DoT kinda went out of control, and over a 30 second fight I ended up with a Diff: +86% (on a total of 85k actual Fiery Claws damage)

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Yawning » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:51 am

Sigh, ok. First of all let's clarify and define some terminology.

Aura Lag is the time it takes a buff/debuff application to get to the server and be applied. SimulationCraft and Mew use 150 ms by default.

Fiery Claws has a "damage pool". As in, each refresh adds to "saved damage", so refreshing it in theory causes 0 losses.

Fiery Claws will "much". If you have 2 applications that are near simultaneous, you will lose one of the applications. This does not happen with kitties because applications are throttled by the GCD, and aura lag is usually < 1.0 sec, and none of the abilities have travel time, but it will happen for Bears because of Maul. This is a bug, and it hurts DPS when it happens.

Fiery Claws will "roll". If you have an application occur near simultaneously to when a tick will occur, it will not deplete the damage pool, essentially gaining a free tick. (Naming taken from the infamous Rolling Ignite behavior back in vanilla). This is a bug, and it helps DPS when it happens.

Both of those two bugs are race conditions and make perfect sense given the logical structure of the server side code.

Crossbow wrote:I made a small addon that tracks it all in real-time, and had a short test on the dummy:
01:52:45 FieryClawsTracker: + Shred: 25011 <-- This shred is actually applied to the Fiery Claws debuff at this point
01:52:45 FieryClawsTracker: - Fiery Claws: 1067 <-- But this tick still got off, so can be considered as bonus


This log is a illustration of rolling, although without a full combat log, the timing granularity of the output is insufficient for me to say so for sure. I would assume that the Shred and Tick are within ~150 ms or so.

Now supposedly, Ignite/Deep Wounds have broken refresh mechanics that also cause you to lose procs (and this is how both SimulationCraft and Mew) will model Fiery Claws but I have not seen any conclusive proof that this occurs. Specifically the behavior I'm looking for is "If Fiery Claws is refreshed while the existing debuff duration is > 4.0 sec, you will lose the refresh". If people consistently are reporting high values, it's rather likely that this bug does not apply to Fiery Claws but I would need to see multiple combat logs with millisecond resolution before I would change the code.

Hope this helps.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Mihir » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:59 am

Looks like this can be attributed to the delay between the shred/mangle hitting, and the dot refreshing; this seems to take about 0.6-0.75sec in most cases. Any FC ticks falling in this period will be bonus ticks.

[19:37:08.366] Mihir Shred Baleroc *52981*
[19:37:09.066] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 1782
[19:37:09.098] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

[19:37:12.779] Mihir Shred Baleroc 22972
[19:37:13.050] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3484
[19:37:13.574] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

[19:37:16.865] Mihir Shred Baleroc 16892
[19:37:17.104] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 4247
[19:37:17.631] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

[19:37:18.999] Mihir Shred Baleroc 18171
[19:37:19.097] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3989
[19:37:19.677] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

[19:37:20.952] Mihir Shred Baleroc 17253
[19:37:21.030] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3265
[19:37:21.733] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

[19:37:22.967] Mihir Shred Baleroc 17915
[19:37:23.082] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3990
[19:37:23.747] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Mihir » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:04 am

As far as i could see we don't suffer from losing procs due to broken refresh mechanics, for example from yesterday's raid:

[23:31:33.663] Mihir Mangle Baleroc 10287
[23:31:34.240] Baleroc afflicted by Fiery Claws from Mihir
[23:31:36.289] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 515
[23:31:36.784] Mihir Shred Baleroc 20187
[23:31:37.491] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[23:31:38.281] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 845
[23:31:38.754] Mihir Shred Baleroc 25920
[23:31:39.531] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[23:31:40.300] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 1427
[23:31:40.372] Mihir Shred Baleroc *52752*
[23:31:41.152] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[23:31:42.228] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 2710
[23:31:43.212] Mihir Shred Baleroc *46790*
[23:31:44.009] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[23:31:44.247] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3366
[23:31:44.429] Mihir Shred Baleroc *46153*
[23:31:45.234] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[23:31:45.278] Mihir Shred Baleroc *47329*
[23:31:46.050] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir
[23:31:46.234] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 5360
[23:31:48.289] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 5361
etc...

calcs to verify damage:

mangle 10287, remaining fiery claws damage 1029=515x2
fiery claws 515, remaining fiery claws damage 515
shred 20187, remaining fiery claws 515+2019=2534=845x3
fiery claws 845, remaining fiery claws 845x2=1690
shred 25920, remaining fiery claws 1690+2592=4282=1427x3
fiery claws 1427, remaining fiery claws 1427x2=2854
shred 52752, remaining fiery claws 2854+5275=8129=2710x3
fiery claws 2710, remaining fiery claws 2710x2=5420
shred 46790, remaining fiery claws 5420+4679=10099=3366x3
fiery claws 3366, remaining fiery claws 3366x2=6732
shred 46153, remaining fiery claws 6732+4615=11347
shred 47329, remaining fiery claws 11347+4733=16080=5360x3
fiery claws 5360, remaining fiery claws 5360x2=10720
fiery claws 5361, remaining fiery claws 5360

At the end i do 2 shreds without a tick, but the calculated damage in the end is still correct.

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Yawning » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:34 am

Mihir wrote:Looks like this can be attributed to the delay between the shred/mangle hitting, and the dot refreshing; this seems to take about 0.6-0.75sec in most cases. Any FC ticks falling in this period will be bonus ticks.


It's dependent on client latency and a host of other factors, but yes, that's what happens. As I said, it's a race condition.

Mihir wrote:As far as i could see we don't suffer from losing procs due to broken refresh mechanics, for example from yesterday's raid:

<logs snipped>

At the end i do 2 shreds without a tick, but the calculated damage in the end is still correct.


Fixed in r847.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Mihir » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:50 am

Some more cause i like maths:

Code: Select all
[19:37:02.266] Mihir Mangle Baleroc *24846*
[19:37:02.997] Baleroc afflicted by Fiery Claws from Mihir

2485=1242x2

[19:37:05.027] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 1242
[19:37:05.189] Mihir Shred Baleroc *41039*
[19:37:05.821] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

1242+4104=5346=1782x3

[19:37:07.010] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 1782
[19:37:08.366] Mihir Shred Baleroc *52981*
[19:37:09.066] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 1782 (bonus)
[19:37:09.098] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

1782x2+5298=8862=2954x3

[19:37:10.990] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 2954
[19:37:11.571] Mihir Shred Baleroc *45450*
[19:37:12.358] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

2954x2+4545=10453=3484x3

[19:37:12.779] Mihir Shred Baleroc 22972
[19:37:13.050] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3484
[19:37:13.574] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

3484x2+2297=9265=3088x3

[19:37:13.672] Mihir Shred Baleroc *43933*
[19:37:14.378] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

3088x3+4393=13658=4553x3

[19:37:15.066] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 4553
[19:37:16.054] Mihir Shred Baleroc *36327*
[19:37:16.812] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

4553x2+3633=12739=4246x3

[19:37:16.865] Mihir Shred Baleroc 16892
[19:37:17.104] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 4247
[19:37:17.631] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

4246x2+1689=10181=3393x3

[19:37:18.098] Mihir Shred Baleroc 17867
[19:37:18.838] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

3393x3+1787=11967=3989x3

[19:37:18.999] Mihir Shred Baleroc 18171
[19:37:19.097] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3989
[19:37:19.677] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

3989x2+1817=9775=3265x3

[19:37:20.952] Mihir Shred Baleroc 17253
[19:37:21.030] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3265
[19:37:21.733] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

3265x2+1725=8257=2752x3

[19:37:22.129] Mihir Shred Baleroc *37129*
[19:37:22.920] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

2752x3+3713=11970=3990x3

[19:37:22.967] Mihir Shred Baleroc 17915
[19:37:23.082] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 3990
[19:37:23.747] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

3990x2+1792=9771=3257x3

[19:37:24.184] Mihir Shred Baleroc *34771*
[19:37:24.962] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

3257x3+3477=13248=4416x3

[19:37:25.058] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 4416
[19:37:27.054] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 4416
[19:37:28.780] Mihir Shred Baleroc 16657
[19:37:29.005] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 4416
[19:37:29.005] Mihir's Fiery Claws fades from Baleroc
[19:37:29.443] Baleroc afflicted by Fiery Claws from Mihir

1666=833x2

[19:37:30.297] Mihir Shred Baleroc 15717
[19:37:31.047] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

833x2+1572=3237=1079x3

[19:37:31.193] Mihir Shred Baleroc 15383
[19:37:31.453] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 1079
[19:37:31.863] Baleroc's Fiery Claws is refreshed by Mihir

1079x2+1538=3696=1232x3

[19:37:33.478] Mihir Fiery Claws Baleroc 1232


So except for the bonus tick at the start, everything else works out 100% correct.

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Ruan » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:56 pm

I'm actually really surprised Blizzard got it to work right, considering all the past trouble with ignite.

Data from a massive amount of Heroic Rhyolith wipes:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-y5py6 ... etails/19/

Total of Shred and Mangle: 4,321,951
Fiery Claws: 432,644

= 10.01%

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Re: [2pT12] Fiery Claws

Postby Fonia » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:24 pm

Ignite only really bugged out (at least recently) when multiple things that would proc it happened at the same time. This was an issue because fireball has a travel time, scorch doesn't, and fire has dots. So they could potentially have a scorch, a fireball, and a dot tick or two happen within the same millisecond, and the server register only the ignite from the dot tick. Recently blizz removed the ability for dots to proc ignite, which I imagine has largely fixed the issue, though I don't really keep up to date on Mage mechanics other than reading patch notes.

When you consider that, it's not surprising that we don't have any issues with munching because the closest we can have 2 shreds together is 1 second. However it can turn up for bears with maul being off the global doing a mangle and a maul simultaneously, but I doubt it's really a huge deal.

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