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Incoming Feral Nerfs

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Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Cuer » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:53 pm

It looks like the nerfbat will be swinging again soon, because of concerns about cats in PVP. From a couple of posts by Zarhym:
We're keeping a close eye on Feral in PvP and understand the concern. Things currently on our radar include the Berserk duration, the Unheeded Warning trinket, and the Predatory Swiftness talent.

Let's please not devolve too much into a discussion of "get your PvE/PvP balance out of my PvP/PvE game!" It's just not beneficial to anyone.

That said, we're happy with Feral performance in PvE overall. It we were to nerf Predatory Swiftness, it'd have a minor impact on PvE. Unheeded Warning is both a PvE and PvP problem. The particular mechanics of the trinket keep it disproportionately powerful for Feral druids. Nerfing Berserk would have PvE ramifications, but we'll take steps overall to make sure your dps doesn’t drop in PvE. We do everything we can to ensure we're considering all aspects of gameplay when approaching class balance.

So get ready for some ability/talent changes, and a nerf to Unheeded Warning so it's proc isn't overpowered.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:53 pm

I won't lie, I still haven't pvped as a cat at all since the nerfs went in for our bleeds so very long ago, but is it really making us that OP, considering Shred is still our biggest attack?

Also for UW, it's not really too unexpected, but if they nerf it I demand they nerf DMC:V for casters as well since it's also pretty disproportionally strong for them as well. Guess I'll save up some JP to get FD, unless I hit revered with guardians before then (and even then I'm not a fan of on-use trinkets at all). Berserk, eh I don't care much, I run out of Energy during Berserk anyways so a good 8-12 seconds on any given use are "wasted" to a degree anyways.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Floofles » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:59 am


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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Konungr » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:27 am

shinryu wrote:I won't lie, I still haven't pvped as a cat at all since the nerfs went in for our bleeds so very long ago, but is it really making us that OP, considering Shred is still our biggest attack?

Also for UW, it's not really too unexpected, but if they nerf it I demand they nerf DMC:V for casters as well since it's also pretty disproportionally strong for them as well. Guess I'll save up some JP to get FD, unless I hit revered with guardians before then (and even then I'm not a fan of on-use trinkets at all). Berserk, eh I don't care much, I run out of Energy during Berserk anyways so a good 8-12 seconds on any given use are "wasted" to a degree anyways.



Macro the On-Use trinket in with TF, because the trinket in question is a 1 min CD w/ 15 sec duration, combining the two would do wonders.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:05 am

Konungr wrote:
shinryu wrote:I won't lie, I still haven't pvped as a cat at all since the nerfs went in for our bleeds so very long ago, but is it really making us that OP, considering Shred is still our biggest attack?

Also for UW, it's not really too unexpected, but if they nerf it I demand they nerf DMC:V for casters as well since it's also pretty disproportionally strong for them as well. Guess I'll save up some JP to get FD, unless I hit revered with guardians before then (and even then I'm not a fan of on-use trinkets at all). Berserk, eh I don't care much, I run out of Energy during Berserk anyways so a good 8-12 seconds on any given use are "wasted" to a degree anyways.



Macro the On-Use trinket in with TF, because the trinket in question is a 1 min CD w/ 15 sec duration, combining the two would do wonders.

How do you do that though, as most need the one with the use that gives back movement right? Then I thought UW was the other general choice.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Konungr » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:50 am

shinryu wrote:
Konungr wrote:
shinryu wrote:I won't lie, I still haven't pvped as a cat at all since the nerfs went in for our bleeds so very long ago, but is it really making us that OP, considering Shred is still our biggest attack?

Also for UW, it's not really too unexpected, but if they nerf it I demand they nerf DMC:V for casters as well since it's also pretty disproportionally strong for them as well. Guess I'll save up some JP to get FD, unless I hit revered with guardians before then (and even then I'm not a fan of on-use trinkets at all). Berserk, eh I don't care much, I run out of Energy during Berserk anyways so a good 8-12 seconds on any given use are "wasted" to a degree anyways.



Macro the On-Use trinket in with TF, because the trinket in question is a 1 min CD w/ 15 sec duration, combining the two would do wonders.

How do you do that though, as most need the one with the use that gives back movement right? Then I thought UW was the other general choice.


Not exactly sure what half of that is talking about "gives back movement" UW is kinda crappy already in application outside of sims unless you can capitalize on all the procs, compared to other trinkets that benefit all of our attacks like Essence and Fluid Death.

#showtooltip
/cast [form:1] Berserk; [form:3, mod][form:3] Tiger's Fury(Cat Form); Entangling Roots
/cast [form:3, mod] Berserk
/use [form:3, mod:ctrl] item:58145
/use [form:3, mod] item:69001

This macro will use Berserk in Bear Form and Roots in any form except for Cat/Bear.
In Cat Form, when used normally it will Tiger's Fury. If you hold down Alt, it will TF/Berserk/Ancient Seed (Change item number to itemid of any other equipped trinket (like badge of conquest for its use). If you hold down Ctrl, it will TF/Berserk/Ancient Seed/Potion of the Tol'vir.
In my macro that I use, I have spec modifiers as well, so that it does not use Potion of the Tol'Vir when I am tanking/pvping, and has 2 different macros.

#showtooltip
/cast [form:1] Berserk; [form:3, mod][form:3] Tiger's Fury(Cat Form); Entangling Roots
/cast [form:3, mod] Berserk
/use [spec:1, form:3, mod:ctrl] item:58145
/use [spec:2, form:3, mod] item:70399; [spec:1, form:3, mod] item:69001

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:01 pm

Konungr wrote:Not exactly sure what half of that is talking about "gives back movement" UW is kinda crappy already in application outside of sims unless you can capitalize on all the procs, compared to other trinkets that benefit all of our attacks like Essence and Fluid Death.

#showtooltip
/cast [form:1] Berserk; [form:3, mod][form:3] Tiger's Fury(Cat Form); Entangling Roots
/cast [form:3, mod] Berserk
/use [form:3, mod:ctrl] item:58145
/use [form:3, mod] item:69001

This macro will use Berserk in Bear Form and Roots in any form except for Cat/Bear.
In Cat Form, when used normally it will Tiger's Fury. If you hold down Alt, it will TF/Berserk/Ancient Seed (Change item number to itemid of any other equipped trinket (like badge of conquest for its use). If you hold down Ctrl, it will TF/Berserk/Ancient Seed/Potion of the Tol'vir.
In my macro that I use, I have spec modifiers as well, so that it does not use Potion of the Tol'Vir when I am tanking/pvping, and has 2 different macros.

#showtooltip
/cast [form:1] Berserk; [form:3, mod][form:3] Tiger's Fury(Cat Form); Entangling Roots
/cast [form:3, mod] Berserk
/use [spec:1, form:3, mod:ctrl] item:58145
/use [spec:2, form:3, mod] item:70399; [spec:1, form:3, mod] item:69001

The one that removes movement-imparing effects is what I meant, like http://www.wowhead.com/item=70392; I thought those were pretty much standard for any non-Human?

But I mean on the forums, all I've seen is people complaining about how OP UW is when used by cats. Not to mention it's still one of the best pve trinkets. Regardless though, it's not that I care about pvp so much as that it's fucking annoying it looks like nerfs in it will potentially affect pve as well. Why blizz just doesn't code things so they can buff/nerf things depending on if you're out in the world or in a freaking bg/arena I'll never know...they'd lessen the qq on themselves and everyone if they would just find a way to balance things so they affect one or the other depending on the environment.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Cuer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:15 pm

Making separate rulesets for PVE and PVP would solve a lot of these problems, but Blizzard devs have stated that they don't want to make the game that much more complex for new players, where they would have to learn two entirely sets of rules for every ability that a class has. So they stick with the "there are some things that are different like crowd control, but most stuff is kinda-sorta the same" mess, instead.

The problem balancing cats in PVP this entire expansion, has been the addition of Mastery. Since it buffs feral bleeds so dramatically (compared to the damage it would do without Mastery), a cat in the hands of a highly skilled PVP player can keep up a high damage undispellable DoT, solid melee damage, and do useful crowd control on the fly as well. In my view, they should just make bleeds dispellable like standard magic DoTs, and balance around that. (They should have done it before they nerfed Berserk, and powershifting, and all the rest.) That way, the top 5% of PVP players could handle the bleeds like they do other DoTs, and Blizzard wouldn't have to keep nerfing everything else that makes cats interesting.

But Blizzard doesn't want to add more to the whole dispel/undispellable mess, so they keep bleeds undispellable and nerf the rest. Once again, a class in 100% of PVE and 95% of PVP content is nerfed, for the top 5% of arena players.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:33 pm

I agree as well, if bleeds were made dispelable, there would definitely be less whining, not to mention that would also solve a big problem with going up against warriors as well; heck I know I wouldn't mind, it's actually an ideal situation since that wouldn't affect pve since, well what boss uses dispels? Shame blizz just fails to see the reasoning and logic to put that change through...


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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Satrion » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:11 am

Once again, a class in 100% of PVE and 95% of PVP content is nerfed, for the top 5% of arena players.


This is entirely incorrect. Ferals are fine in the top 5%, it's the bads in pvp that are calling for nerfs. Good teams dispel the predatory strikes buff, they fear/stun/root during berserk, and they generally move to make it hard to shred. Baddies stand there while a feral shreds to 5 CPs, pools 50 energy, crits a FB and then insta cyclones his healer. Immediately after that they run to the forums and complain about how there was NOTHING they could have done and ferals are OP.

Giving skilled players more ways to counter a feral is totally unnecessary. Ferals are no where near dominant in the top 5%.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Cuer » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:38 am

Well, it's true that a lot of this is based on perceptions, and the people who cry the hardest aren't the actual top players. But that's a given any time you're talking about PVP-related nerfs.

In general, the overall strengths of ferals aren't as powerful in large groups (they certainly aren't tearing up the rated battlegrounds compared to some classes, for example). But in small teams, they can do a lot, because of the combination listed above -- undispellable DoTs, solid melee DPS, and the occasional crowd control. Perhaps it isn't the most accurate to say this is being done for the top 5% in playing ability, but certainly no more than 5-10% of the total PVP playing time done is in those arena 2v2 and 3v3 brackets, where people are crying because of the relative strengths of ferals.

It really is a difficult set of design constraints for the Blizzard developers: they not only try to balance both PVE and PVP with the same ruleset, but also all forms of PVP at the same time, which can have wildly different levels of power based on the team size, class composition and synergies, etc. Unfortunately, that seems to lead ultimately to greater homogenization across the board, which makes all the classes blander in playstyle. These upcoming feral nerfs will likely continue that process.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Lax » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:17 am

Lots of Diablo 3 news today from the press event. I found this gem in an interview:

Q: If a lot of players want to turn it into a big, competitive e-sport kind of thing…you wouldn’t stop them, would you?

A: No. But when people say “BARB IS TOTALLY OP!!!” we’re going to be like “yeah…he probably is.” (Talk about SC2 balance…) We’re not going to be looking at a lot of percentages or really even tracking it. If players want to turn it into an e-sport, more power to them, but we want to set their expectations about what level we’re going to support that. We never want PvP to drive PvE game balance, and that is the reason why in WoW (to a lesser degree than SC2) they both let the PvP game drive the PvE game and whenever we have a conflict…(moderator dude interrupts)


I wonder what he would have said :)

Full story:
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/26249-d ... ent-visit/

(real money AH ... wtf)

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Cuer » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:09 am

There's an interview later on in that page with Jay Wilson where he expands the idea:

Q: Any thoughts about a wagering system for PvP?

Micah: (Side stage)Yes

A: Apparently Micah is all for it. If there was ever a way we could make it into an e-sport, which is exactly what we don’t want to do, no not really. And that is the reason why. We know people are going to want to turn it into an e-sport but it won’t be from any encouragement from us. The big reason being is that we are never going to allow, or at least over my dead body, the PvP game to wag the tail on game balance. We want the PvE game to rule it. Even the amount that PvP can alter the PvE game in WoW is unacceptable to us. Whenever we run into a case where “this would be really awesome for PvE” and the PvP guys says “that kind of screw PvP” the answer is always “shut up PvP guy, it’s awesome in PvE”.

It sounds like the PVP guy must have a thick skin, being rejected like that all the time! As pointed out there, they really don't want Diablo III to be an e-sport in any way; PVP is set up to be a casual system, where they won't even display win/loss statistics.

So it's clearly different from how WoW is designed, and therefor the balance required isn't the same.

As total speculation, I imagine that the Titan MMO that Blizzard is working on will have clearly defined separate rulesets for PVP and PVE from the start. That way they can do balancing much more easily for both sides of the game, and still have it as an e-sport game.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:57 pm

I <3 Diablo team's attitude towards PvP :D

Also, wish they'd implement Diablo 3's cash AH into WoW, then I could sell my stuff for generally useful cash instead of generally useless gold.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Evil » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:09 pm

shinryu wrote:I <3 Diablo team's attitude towards PvP :D

Also, wish they'd implement Diablo 3's cash AH into WoW, then I could sell my stuff for generally useful cash instead of generally useless gold.


They don't have to include this - if they really want they could just use WoW Gold to pay your account. I'm not a big fan of real money item shop games
and if Blizz ever decide to include item/gear shops for real money - I'm done with it. Then you are able to see little rich boys with epic gear ... never ever!

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:00 pm

Evil wrote:
shinryu wrote:I <3 Diablo team's attitude towards PvP :D

Also, wish they'd implement Diablo 3's cash AH into WoW, then I could sell my stuff for generally useful cash instead of generally useless gold.


They don't have to include this - if they really want they could just use WoW Gold to pay your account. I'm not a big fan of real money item shop games
and if Blizz ever decide to include item/gear shops for real money - I'm done with it. Then you are able to see little rich boys with epic gear ... never ever!

Well I agree as well, if Blizz themselves ever decided to start selling gear for real cash, I'd be unsubbed almost right away and then find other games to entertain myself to swtor.

Now if they sold items, like say mats, eh...I wouldn't be as opposed assuming they're just the common mats that I'd waste time farming otherwise or otherwise buying for gold. But what I want is the ability to sell my crap for real money, like for example I just sold an Apparatus of Kaz'goroth recently for 36k gold that I don't need; now if you go by the general gold seller price of 10k for $10 or so, that's easily a nice $20+ (since obviously not everyone will pay such a high price) I could have got the trinket for instead to pay for real expenses instead of seeing gold do nothing for me in the game.

And if some people quit over a p2p cash AH, so what? I certainly wouldn't mind having a less crowded server, less trolls and idiots hopefully.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Evil » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:29 am

shinryu wrote:
Evil wrote:
shinryu wrote:I <3 Diablo team's attitude towards PvP :D

Also, wish they'd implement Diablo 3's cash AH into WoW, then I could sell my stuff for generally useful cash instead of generally useless gold.


They don't have to include this - if they really want they could just use WoW Gold to pay your account. I'm not a big fan of real money item shop games
and if Blizz ever decide to include item/gear shops for real money - I'm done with it. Then you are able to see little rich boys with epic gear ... never ever!

Well I agree as well, if Blizz themselves ever decided to start selling gear for real cash, I'd be unsubbed almost right away and then find other games to entertain myself to swtor.

Now if they sold items, like say mats, eh...I wouldn't be as opposed assuming they're just the common mats that I'd waste time farming otherwise or otherwise buying for gold. But what I want is the ability to sell my crap for real money, like for example I just sold an Apparatus of Kaz'goroth recently for 36k gold that I don't need; now if you go by the general gold seller price of 10k for $10 or so, that's easily a nice $20+ (since obviously not everyone will pay such a high price) I could have got the trinket for instead to pay for real expenses instead of seeing gold do nothing for me in the game.

And if some people quit over a p2p cash AH, so what? I certainly wouldn't mind having a less crowded server, less trolls and idiots hopefully.


Totaly right - can't agree more. Same opinion here ...

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby shinryu » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:39 pm

Looks like the first of stealth nerfs have arrived...EU players have reported UW being changed to proc like 2.6k AtP instead of the current one for weapon damage.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/950 ... st12545873

Oh well, UW will still take up a place of honor in my bank for its serviceable pve record. No because a bunch of whiny kids in pvp ruined what was otherwise a nice trinket.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Konungr » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:57 pm

shinryu wrote:Looks like the first of stealth nerfs have arrived...EU players have reported UW being changed to proc like 2.6k AtP instead of the current one for weapon damage.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/950 ... st12545873

Oh well, UW will still take up a place of honor in my bank for its serviceable pve record. No because a bunch of whiny kids in pvp ruined what was otherwise a nice trinket.



I'm glad it got nerfed, and had it not been for PVP ramifications, it would have been nerfed soon anyways. Blizzard doesn't want any more Darkmoon Card Greatnesses.

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Chairmanmeow » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:18 pm

Konungr wrote:I'm glad it got nerfed, and had it not been for PVP ramifications, it would have been nerfed soon anyways. Blizzard doesn't want any more Darkmoon Card Greatnesses.


And yet they still have another DMC that's exactly that. It's just limited to caster DPS this time around.

On-topic, will this significantly alter DoT refreshing thresholds based on the proc, or is the net AP change marginal enough to safely ignore (for those still using it, obviously)?

If memory serves, AP contribution to DoTs are snapshots at cast, no? So wouldn't this bump trinkets like 359 EotC over UW since crit is calculated dynamically for DoTs, iirc?

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Re: Incoming Feral Nerfs

Postby Konungr » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:22 pm

Chairmanmeow wrote:
Konungr wrote:I'm glad it got nerfed, and had it not been for PVP ramifications, it would have been nerfed soon anyways. Blizzard doesn't want any more Darkmoon Card Greatnesses.


And yet they still have another DMC that's exactly that. It's just limited to caster DPS this time around.

On-topic, will this significantly alter DoT refreshing thresholds based on the proc, or is the net AP change marginal enough to safely ignore (for those still using it, obviously)?

If memory serves, AP contribution to DoTs are snapshots at cast, no? So wouldn't this bump trinkets like 359 EotC over UW since crit is calculated dynamically for DoTs, iirc?



Yeah I know there's a caster one, but it will either get nerfed or upgraded soon.

You shouldn't be using UHW once it gets its AP proc. AP is worth roughly the same as all the other secondary stats, and even though it is 1926 AP, the 372 trinkets alone already outweigh it. Looking at Essence of the Cyclone, 363 Agi (42 Agi more), and a 2178 Proc (252 more) outweight it. As for whether or not it still beats Fluid Death is questionable.

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