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Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby cg1351 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:16 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
kerplunk101 wrote:Hey guys, just got the rune today, all reforged and set.

I would like to know what the reason we reforge 1.1.1. I know that upping haste will increase proc chance. So why dont we just have mastery and haste at 1.1 and completely ignore crit?

The proc takes your 2 lower stats, adds them together and doubles them. If you have 10,000 total secondary stats, with Mastery at 5k, Haste at 4k, and crit at 1k, you have (4000 + 1000) * 2 = 10,000 extra Mastery. If however you have 4k Mastery 3k Haste, and 3k Crit you have (3000 + 3000) * 2 = 12k Mastery. The more of each seconday stat you have the larger the proc you will have.


This doesn't answer the question(he said 1:1 and in your second example you take away 1k mastery and put it into secondary stats being doubled assuming the same amount of secondary stats just in one stat the proc would do exactly the same) and i'd also like to know why we balance the two secondary stats that we'll lose to the proc rather then just going for one. I'd assume it's because one naturally increases the value of the other but at such a small difference could we not just go for 1:1 and ignore the third?

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby cg1351 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:18 am

At what point gearing wise or raid buff wise do we thrash over swipe with ror up? With self buffs flask and 300 food swipe is way ahead on damage,cheaper and gives cps. (524 ilvl, 23500 mastery proc)
Last edited by cg1351 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby Steakbomb » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:51 am

With RoR up you should always use Thrash over Swipe. Thrash has a bleed effect after so even if Swipe does more damage than Thrash on that first hit, Thrash does more damage overall because RoR makes the bleed from Thrash hit so hard.

I just tested on a dummy without a 2nd trinket proc or Dancing Steel or DoC up just to verify this with 1 Thrash and 1 Swipe

Total Trash Dmg = 206.8k
Total Swipe Dmg = 52k

Gear does not matter for this to be true.


For the other question with secondaries being a 1:1:1 ratio I will elaborate more. What Tinder said is correct.

For this example we will use 10,000 total secondary stats overall.

Rune of Re-Origination takes the 2 lower of your secondary stats(Haste/Mastery/Crit) and then DOUBLES them and adds them to your highest secondary stat.

Scenario 1:
Now if you balance them at let's say 3,337 Mastery + 3,333 Haste + 3,330 Crit = 10,000. Rune will take 3,333 + 3,330 = 6663 * 2 = 13,326 and add that to Mastery = 16,663 Rune Proc.

Scenario 2:
So like Tinder stated, if you have 5,000 Mastery + 4,000 Haste + 1,000 Crit(5+4+1=10). Rune will take 4,000 Haste + 1,000 Crit = 5,000 and then times that by 2= 10,000 and then ADD that to Mastery = 15,000 Rune Proc.

Scenario 3:
If you balance 2 of your stats and ignore the third, let's say 4,501 Mastery + 4,499 Haste + 1,000 Crit(You will never fully get rid of any stat). Rune will take 4,499 + 1,000 = 5,499 * 2 = 10,998 and add that to Mastery = 15,497 Rune Proc.

This clearly shows why keeping all stats close to each other is better than ignoring 1.

Math without all the wording;

Scenario 1:
Mastery: 3,337
Haste: 3,333
Crit: 3,330
3,333 + 3,330 = 6663 * 2 = 13,326 + 3,337 = 16,663 Rune Proc

Scenario 2:
Mastery: 5,000
Haste: 4,000
Crit: 1,000
4,000 + 1,000 = 5,000 * 2 = 10,000 + 5,000 = 15,000 Rune Proc

Scenario 3:
Mastery: 4,501
Haste: 4,499
Crit: 1,000
4,499 + 1,000 = 5,499 * 2 = 10,998 + 4,501 = 15,497 Rune Proc


In all Scenarios, 10,000 total stats were used. No matter how you move around the numbers, Scenario 1 is always the best way to go. This is also ignoring the fact that without Rune proc up in Scenario 1 a lot more of your other attacks(Melee/Mangle/Rake/Rip/Shred/Swipe/Thrash) are going to Crit as well.
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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:55 am

cg1351 wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:This doesn't answer the question(he said 1:1 and in your second example you take away 1k mastery and put it into secondary stats being doubled assuming the same amount of secondary stats just in one stat the proc would do exactly the same) and i'd also like to know why we balance the two secondary stats that we'll lose to the proc rather then just going for one. I'd assume it's because one naturally increases the value of the other but at such a small difference could we not just go for 1:1 and ignore the third?

2 Reasons.
1. You can't actually do 1:1:ignore. You can reforge more away, but if you have 10k stats you won't be able to do 5k and 5k. Even if you could it would still be lower then 1:1:1 with the same 10k stats.
2. Good uptime on Rune is 15-24%. The other 76% of the time you have to be doing normal DPS with your current stats. Dropping Crit just makes for fewer combo points. While Haste does give some increased chance to proc the trinkets, it is still our worst stat. Getting less stats for the Rune proc, and less combo points with Crit during the off time isn't even close to worth it.

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:56 am

Steakbomb wrote:With RoR up you should always use Thrash over Swipe. Thrash has a bleed effect after so even if Swipe does more damage than Thrash on that first hit, Thrash does more damage overall because RoR makes the bleed from Thrash hit so hard.

On top of this Swipe does 20% more damage to bleeding targets. Always use Thrash first, then Swipe.

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby cg1351 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:40 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
cg1351 wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:This doesn't answer the question(he said 1:1 and in your second example you take away 1k mastery and put it into secondary stats being doubled assuming the same amount of secondary stats just in one stat the proc would do exactly the same) and i'd also like to know why we balance the two secondary stats that we'll lose to the proc rather then just going for one. I'd assume it's because one naturally increases the value of the other but at such a small difference could we not just go for 1:1 and ignore the third?

2 Reasons.
1. You can't actually do 1:1:ignore. You can reforge more away, but if you have 10k stats you won't be able to do 5k and 5k. Even if you could it would still be lower then 1:1:1 with the same 10k stats.
2. Good uptime on Rune is 15-24%. The other 76% of the time you have to be doing normal DPS with your current stats. Dropping Crit just makes for fewer combo points. While Haste does give some increased chance to proc the trinkets, it is still our worst stat. Getting less stats for the Rune proc, and less combo points with Crit during the off time isn't even close to worth it.



Yeh i'm an idiot :D tbf it was late :P I always wondered why we split the secondary stats evenly without realising if we go 1:1 and ignore third we're reducing the amount of secondary stats being doubled to keep mastery higher then the other stat we are using.

As for the thrash question the other guy answered i think you misunderstand mate we're talking about spamming an ability you would ofc use thrash before ror dropped to get a strong bleed but from what i can see now tinder is right you would just swipe spam after thrash is up it's cheaper does more damage(with bleeds up) and gives cps.

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:04 pm

In ~547 gear with re-origination (but no other procs) active, swipe does ~73k damage while thrash does ~91k initial damage. Thrash also scales better with any agility procs. Make of that what you will.

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby AsgardFM » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:19 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:In ~547 gear with re-origination (but no other procs) active, swipe does ~73k damage while thrash does ~91k initial damage. Thrash also scales better with any agility procs. Make of that what you will.


How does that calculate if you've got 4piece bonus currently active? Is the +40% crit chance enough to push Swipe ahead (talking Initial, assuming you have used Thrash once to get the DoT ticking and +20% bonus to swipe)

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:48 pm

Yeah in that case swipe does ~95k with re-origination and no other procs.

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Re: Maximizing Rune of Re-Origination

Postby ShmooDude » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:09 pm

AsgardFM wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:In ~547 gear with re-origination (but no other procs) active, swipe does ~73k damage while thrash does ~91k initial damage. Thrash also scales better with any agility procs. Make of that what you will.


How does that calculate if you've got 4piece bonus currently active? Is the +40% crit chance enough to push Swipe ahead (talking Initial, assuming you have used Thrash once to get the DoT ticking and +20% bonus to swipe)


If the Aoe is going to last a while, you're probably better off holding off on using swipe (which is almost no fights this tier except maybe horridon) till the rune proc expires so that its crit chance is higher.

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