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Cata Kitty

Face-rippin fun.
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Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:30 am

Talent trees look frighteningly awful at the moment to me, though 'the powers that be' have said its still very much work in progress. I do hope so because currently it reads as though we'll have few choices, be forced to take survival/bear like talents and end up with some serious loss of dps enhancing tools we have at the moment.

Read Kalon's post (linked to from the blog here) and its a real disheartener.

Still, fingers crossed it all works out in the end.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:26 pm

You shouldn't be disheartend yet. If you look at the other trees and how much they changed and look at ours and see nothing did you can tell that the only work on our tree so far was just to remove old talents. They setup the frame work so they can then do the modifications. I wouldn't be worried at this time.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Goodmongo » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:01 pm

I'm worried from the perspective that shred doesn't add double combo points on crits, and the overall dps loss is really high. They have already said they are removing feral AP and that they weren't getting rid of claw. If you don't get rid of claw then my fear is they try to force us to use it. yes it is early but the pattern does exist where Blizzard never gets around to fixing a broken ability.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:45 pm

Don't worry about Claw at all. The first thing you get when you pick a feral spec is Mangle. We start with it at level 10 the same time we get cat form. Thats the way it is right now in the beta. Ferals won't have to mess with claw again. I still feel that based on the changes in the warrior tree's and mage tree's (not counting arcane/prot) that we have some major changes in store. Also GC has posted that Druids really haven't even been worked on, still lots more changes.

The combo point thing was working in the alpha even though the talent had already been modified to remove that tool tip. I have a feeling that they took out the functionality before they updated the talents. Just look at Furor for example. They took to levels out but didn't adjust anything so we can't get a 100% proc. Its half way done, we don't need to panic yet.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:47 am

Well, in terms of dps numbers we are still looking pretty damn awful in cata and on the PTR. Looks like the latest build is going live too, so our 'live' play may be about to suffer :(

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:00 am

Lack of competitve dps is still a worry, hope they 'balance' it sooner rather than later. Lack of any acknowledgement from Blizz as to the issue also a worry. However, given what we know I'm inclined to think the new 'rotation' may be just as complex if not more so with the TF change and timing of dots to coincide. However, Im only speculating, what do you guys think?

So assuming:

1) Getting dots up > getting SR up
2) Dots tick damage will be based on buffs we have when dot is started (maybe this will change?)

Rotation/priority might be something like

1) Use pounce/free ravage
2) Use up what energy you have to get some combo points - Mangle and Shred
3) Get TF up
4) Get Rake up (whilst TF running)
5) Get 5 pt Rip up (whilst TF running)
6) Get SR up
7) Shred and FB as much as poss
8) Refresh Rake when it drops
9) Get TF up when you can
10) Get Rake up again (probably overwriting the one that was running)
11) Get a new 5 pt Rip up (probably having had 5/27 secs downtime)
12) And so on

Have folks played around with this on PTR? How does it feel? Is there a better way?

Question: Other classes dots will change dynamically based on buffs the caster gets/loses right? But not ours? Might this change do we think? Would that be good or bad thing? On the plus side you could just go for 100% rake/rip uptime but on the minus side only 6/27 secs on both would be buffed.

Question 2: How will the dot clipping thing work? If we clip to extend a TF boosted rake/rip when we dont have TF up any longer will the new/extended time knock off the damage boost or will it extend the boosted dot? I assume not but dont really understand the dot clipping mechanic.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Alaron » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:15 pm

I'll be re-subscribing and playing around with things at some point...at the moment, I'll defer to Kalon, though, who's been with things through Beta.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:47 pm

Just quoting my post from EJB from earlier today:

I am very dubious about the overall value of Stampede and Predatory Strikes on a lot of the fights in PVE. It is 4 talent points for a single attack damage increase once every 30 seconds. Also, until they adjust our damage coefficients we don't really know how much better it will be than our other attacks. We may find that opening with mangle is more important in a raid environment even when we use feral charge to get in position.

An interesting question for our openings is whether we should get to 5 combo points, TF, RiP, refresh Rake and then use one or more combo points to get SR up or get SR up first. Lining up the timers - TF 30s, Rip 16s or 22s with Glyph of Shred, Rake 15s, SR 22-42s. It looks like we may not want to use Glyph of Shred, and instead line up every other Rake and Rip to occur after TF. There is also a question of using the Glyph of TF - but taking 3 seconds off of TF will make it harder to sync it with Rip and Rake. With mastery and the Glyph of Rip, lining up TF with Rip and Rake may take precedence over everything else in the rotation. The rules for when to FB will probably be more restrictive now and we may find the only time we use FB is during the execute phase. Current FB use is predicated on the idea that some downtime on Rip is acceptable.

Here is another interesting question, if we refresh a Rip with FB during the execute phase, if the Rip was cast during TF does it retain the 15% extra damage?


We really need to get a working simcraft to test the various rotations. Note the significant difference from what Dabeasty proposed vs. what I am proposing - whether or not to use the Shred glyph, how often if ever to FB before the execute phase, and even what to open with. Without measurement we don't really know what is best. And it is exacerbated because our current coefficients seem very low.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Alaron » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:28 pm

Ugh, like I said in the other thread, I have no idea...my best guess is that the Shred glyph will be suboptimal to the other three at 80, but arguable at 85 due to lower crit rates.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:55 pm

The 5 choices for prime glyphs currently are:
* Glyph of Rip
* Glyph of Savage Roar
* Glyph of Tiger's Fury
* Glyph of Shred
* Glyph of Berserk
If it turns out the DoT uptime along with synchronizing TF with every other Rip/Rake provides the highest DPS output then Rip, Savage Roar and Berserk would be the choices as a 27 second TF would not sync well with the 16/15 seconds for Rip/Rake and a 22 second Rip would lead to either 8+ seconds of Rip downtime out of 30 or syncing with TF on every third Rip. FB is pretty poor now - my gut feeling is that a rotation with 8 seconds of Rip downtime and a filler FB will provide the lowest dps of the three.

I have been playing a little on the beta but almost exclusively checking out the new zones and quests. I will have to spend some time on a target dummy playing with the different rotations/glyph combos. I am really looking forward to simcraft being updated.

Edit: there is a sixth prime glyph - Mangle. I have not compared a glyphed mangle to shred but I am using it for leveling on beta (only 82 atm - just not enough free time).

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Alaron » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:22 pm

Yeah, refreshing bleeds during TF is nice, but I'm not sure it's a rotation-changer (definitely not worth 8 seconds of Rip downtime out of 30...that's a 20%+ dps loss.) I'd totally forgotten about the Berserk glyph...not sure it's worth taking with the TF glyph, as you start running into overlap issues there as well. Avoiding Berserk canceling the dps boost from TF is more important now, I'd wager.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:56 am

I finally shifted my druid over to the PTR. I noticed a drop from approx 8.2 to 7.1k dps on the heroic test dummy. I had regemmed everything to either agi or agi/haste (plus 1 nightmare tear). I was hit capped and close to exp cap. I tried messing about reforging some crit to mastery and later to haste...neither set ups made much difference, all performed about the same. I did find it hard without any of my timer addons but cant imagine I would have done much more dps with them. So all in all it looks like about a 15% dps loss self buffed for me...not sure how it will work out in 25 raid.

My lock mate came and popped out 10k on the same dummy without trying....I used to beat him on the meterz :shock: :shock:

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby mineko » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:59 am

I also tried my luck on the PTR, however I did not regem or reforge. In other words I was loaded down with crit gems. I can say that the rotation has been made much easier due to the lengthened SR and rip durations, but the maximum dps output I could get was around 8k.

Then I switched to my crappy boomkin set (mostly ilvl 264 T10, some badge gear, and a few ilvl 200s that I can't seem to replace) and tried out boomkin for a while...I averaged around 9k dps even with my crappy gear and my barely workable knowledge of boomkin rotation. This makes me sad.

Again, I hadn't changed my gemming/reforging at all for my feral gear so maybe that will make a huge difference. Hopefully.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:48 am

@Mineko and Dabeasty

Can you clarify what rotations you were using? Also, what glyphs?

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Alaron » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:05 pm

My tentative observation from what I've read is that, in general, casters >>> melee at this point. Large fixes are still being done (witness the 20% threat boost all tanks got...and that's on the release canddiate).

If it was mid-November, I'd be a bit more worried.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:13 pm

I tried the traditional rotation - keep everything up...
I also tried a slight variation where I tried to time Rip, Rake with TF and then let them have a bit of downtime...

I must admit, having no bad kitty didnt help but I think I got it reasonably ok.

I stuck with Shred, Rip and SR in terms of glyphs....I would like to try with a TF but none of AH on PTR and I didnt take one over with me

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:57 pm

Dabeasty wrote:I must admit, having no bad kitty didnt help but I think I got it reasonably ok.


Here is an addon I found this morning that is workable: http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/i ... rBars.html

Which glyphs are you using?

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:09 pm

Leafkiller - Shred, Rip and SR still. Cant find a TF to try on PTR.

Also, for your amusement...

My offspec is boomkin.
It isnt well geared (about 5.7gs).
I havent regemmed or glyphed on PTR.
I havent read up on rotation so I have no idea what that sun/moon thing is all about.
I just outdpsed (by about 1k dps in a self buffed, sustained test) my well geared, glyphed, regemmed, reforged Feral Cat where I know the rotation inside out...

Eck

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:44 pm

Thanks for the addon , helps a lot on ptr

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:35 pm

Couple of other things Ive noticed on PTR which Im not sure as working as intended...

Feral Charge seems to leave me facing away from the Test Dummy half the times I use it.
I dont seem to be able to extend rip or rake dots all of the time...not sure if the restriction is because 'theres a more powerful version already up' or what...is that how it still works?

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:58 pm

"The more powerful spell" restriction definitely applies to Rip on Beta. Some examples I tested:

5 point Rip could not be overwritten with a 4 point Rip
TF 5 point Rip could not be overwritten with a 5 point Rip
5 point Rip could be overwritten with a 5 point Rip
5 point Rip could be overwritten with a TF 5 point Rip
DBM proc 5 point Rip could not be overwritten with a 5 point Rip

I got called away from my keyboard at that point and did not get a chance to check out Rake.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby mineko » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:51 am

I tried two rotations, one that was exactly how the current rotation would be on live (Mangle, SR, Rake, Shred to 5, Rip, use TF every cooldown, FB when I have spare CPs and sufficient time, and continue John Madden-ing to keep everything up) This got me around 8.3k dps

The second rotation I tried involved letting Rip fall off for a few seconds to synchronize with TF as best as I could. This meant my Rip uptime was very sub-optimal, but I maximized the benefit of TF on Rip. I found that this method actually did not benefit my dps much at all, I still was only able to hit around 8.3k dps, so I pretty much broke even with the typical rotation.

I also tried goofy methods like running out to feral charge + ravage every 30 seconds. It felt clunky and also didn't seem to help my dps at all.

This is all very unscientific testing though. I only tested each rotation twice or so. My glyphs are all the same as what we use on live, I haven't had a chance to test out any other configurations.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Goodmongo » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:08 am

While I do not know what our final rotations should or will be I'm pretty certain that we will not open with pounce and ravage. The reason is threat. All tanking classes are having threat management issues and threat is sometimes slow to build. If we pounce/ravage we will be a dead kitty.

As for our DPS some have claimed that PTR dps was ok for them. But this is what everyone is missing. Even if PTR dps is back to what we do on live now it will be way below all other non-melee classes. Mages, locks, shadow priests, etc are up 20 to 40% in DPS damage and at best we are breakeven. And I personally can't get back to my former DPS levels. Maybe it's me but I'm still down by a large amount.

So between PTR going live and Cata release what are we to do? Why would any raid leader take us when casters are so OP in dps compared to us?

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:40 pm

Goodmongo wrote:Why would any raid leader take us when casters are so OP in dps compared to us?


Maybe because I am the guild leader? ;) Seriously though, most of the raid teams I have seen are not running with a lot of ferals. We currently have two. In the short term bear is looking more viable than cat - so it might come down to tanking. I have considered swapping to boomkin for a bit though. There is the question of the mangle debuff and how much that is worth to the raid team - which might argue for having one feral in the raid much like we always run with a demo lock.

In any event, I don't think raiding is going to be that intense until the expansion - so the more important questions will be how well balanced will we by by mid December and what our rotation will look like.

I was hoping to do some testing on the Beta with the TF glyph, but I could not find any way to train for it and it was not on the (almost) free glyph vendor. I will check the AH, but I am guessing it is not available in the game yet.

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Re: Cata Kitty

Postby mineko » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:10 pm

Most everyone probably knows this already, but in case you don't, Ovale just got an update for 4.0.1.

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... ovale.aspx

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