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Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby raffy » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:47 pm

If anyone has free time, it would be valuable to log on the PTR, and attack a target dummy with the various trinkets, to verify their stated RPPM values are correct. I recall reading that Ticking Ebon was not matching the RPPM in the tooltip. There may be others.

As another experiment, I've been playing with a combat log parser in Catus. Given a combat log, I attempt to validate a bunch of "Cat Facts" like various proc rates, damage numbers, etc... It's very basic at the moment, but going forward, I think confirming in-game performance is very valuable.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby aggixx » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:11 pm

Whitepaw wrote:I've seen it calculated as a 10% dps nerf to DoC.

That's what's wrong.


Both specs lose a pretty considerable amount of DPS to the RoR changes, DoC loses a bit from the removal as NS as well. It's a total of about 10% for DoC, close to that for HotW but not quite as much.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:46 pm

So about 2 weeks till patch. No major feral changes for 10+ builds since they reverted DoC. A lot of the SoO heroic fights push melee awareness, multi-target dps and defensive utility to the limit. So far we're seeing less utility, high dependance on the 4set and a harsh dps nerf. Smells to me like another 5.0 patch where we buckle up in the back seats and cheese some fights with hotw hurricane.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby feralminded » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:20 pm

Yeah good thing guardian is getting a buff or else I'd probably have to kick myself out of my own raid :)

(truth is I am probably gonna off-resto this tier to reduce some of the strain on agility assuming the doom and gloom pans out).
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Sibylle » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:32 pm

Alpheus wrote:So about 2 weeks till patch. No major feral changes for 10+ builds since they reverted DoC. A lot of the SoO heroic fights push melee awareness, multi-target dps and defensive utility to the limit. So far we're seeing less utility, high dependance on the 4set and a harsh dps nerf. Smells to me like another 5.0 patch where we buckle up in the back seats and cheese some fights with hotw hurricane.

Do you mean the DoC changes when you say dps nerf? Or is there something else I've overlooked? *scared*
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:56 pm

Sibylle wrote:
Alpheus wrote:So about 2 weeks till patch. No major feral changes for 10+ builds since they reverted DoC. A lot of the SoO heroic fights push melee awareness, multi-target dps and defensive utility to the limit. So far we're seeing less utility, high dependance on the 4set and a harsh dps nerf. Smells to me like another 5.0 patch where we buckle up in the back seats and cheese some fights with hotw hurricane.

Do you mean the DoC changes when you say dps nerf? Or is there something else I've overlooked? *scared*


DoC hasn't been changed at all as far as I know. I was referring to NS and the RPPM changes (ie. not guaranteed proc overlaps on pull and lower rppm due to removed haste scaling).
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Sibylle » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:06 am

I was actually referring to NS in combination with DoC, because it's like an indirect nerf of DoC. Sorry, tired :) Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Meaningless » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:32 pm

raffy wrote:If anyone has free time, it would be valuable to log on the PTR, and attack a target dummy with the various trinkets, to verify their stated RPPM values are correct. I recall reading that Ticking Ebon was not matching the RPPM in the tooltip. There may be others.

As another experiment, I've been playing with a combat log parser in Catus. Given a combat log, I attempt to validate a bunch of "Cat Facts" like various proc rates, damage numbers, etc... It's very basic at the moment, but going forward, I think confirming in-game performance is very valuable.



I did a brief test segment on 4 trinkets regarding the RPPM tootip (18 minute segments) and got the following result:
Ticking Ebon Detonator (ilvl 553) - 0,61 RPPM (Expected value: 1 RPPM)
Rune of Re-Origination (ilvl 546) - 1,28 RPPM (Expected value: 1,26 RPPM)
Haromm's Talisman (ilvl 553) - 1,06 RPPM (Expected value: 0,92 RPPM)
Renataki's Soul Charm (ilvl 535) - 1,28 RPPM (Expected value: 1,21 RPPM)
As said, the testing segments are brief but it should at least give you an overall view of the current situation. I just haven't had the time to do a proper test yet.

On another note, is there any sims posted for the latest 2s/4s changes compared to t15 and off pieces?
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby aggixx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:19 pm

If you have RoR you'll want to get the set bonuses no matter what, the differences in itemization are almost completely negligible. I believe these results are still accurate for values:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=817&start=425#p18202
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:16 pm

Heads up! DoC changes look to be in the pipe. https://twitter.com/devolore/status/372394080577138689

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:32 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Heads up! DoC changes look to be in the pipe. https://twitter.com/devolore/status/372394080577138689


One week before the patch :D Ready your feedback/tuning pants!
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:47 pm

We still got 2 weeks. Fingers crossed.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:46 pm

Looks like they're gonna buff DoC to probably 30 or 35% instead of 25%

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:53 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Looks like they're gonna buff DoC to probably 30 or 35% instead of 25%


Haha- ha :/ I can see them doing this tbh.

No wait, DoC now also procs from using Nature's Grasp, replaces NS. if they want to do this seriously I'd say it's most likely to hit during this weekend's build update. And to rub it in, I bet it's something that's gonna break SimC/Catus :D
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:38 pm

Alpheus wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:Looks like they're gonna buff DoC to probably 30 or 35% instead of 25%


Haha- ha :/ I can see them doing this tbh.

No wait, DoC now also procs from using Nature's Grasp, replaces NS. if they want to do this seriously I'd say it's most likely to hit during this weekend's build update. And to rub it in, I bet it's something that's gonna break SimC/Catus :D


In that same tweet thread linked above, Josh Allen said "I believe the plan is to bump up DoC slightly to make it more worthwhile." That's why I'm pretty sure its just getting a flat buff instead of a mechanic change.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alaron » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:58 pm

Updated PTR patch notes 27 Aug:

  • DoC buffed to 30% from 25%.
  • FoN feral treants now do less damage, but cast Entangling Roots and Rake(???) instead of Bash.
  • NV buffed to 12% damage/healing, from 10%.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:29 am

Credit where credit is due. Edgy and Aggixx are the guys responsible for this. Thanks for continuing to do sim's to prove our point. We aren't exactly back to where we used to be, but its way better having at choice at all.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby aggixx » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:39 am

Presumably the FoN change is to allow them to scale with mastery instead of just crit, haste, and AP. This is probably why they've been so poor for us; with Rune or without mastery stacking is the predominant reforge method and it causes FoN to fall behind.

Some preliminary results:
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:17 am

aggixx wrote:Presumably the FoN change is to allow them to scale with mastery instead of just crit, haste, and AP. This is probably why they've been so poor for us; with Rune or without mastery stacking is the predominant reforge method and it causes FoN to fall behind.

Some preliminary results:
Image


I wouldn't be surprised if we get a slighter tweak in 5.4-5.5 once the heroic tier starts. As for FoN, isn't the rake damage going to break roots instantly (PvP)? For PvE I reckon it probably has the same problem as HotW. Since it has no AoE utility, it would need to be stronger than SotF to be considered which remains to be seen.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Whitepaw » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:20 am

How about changing Predatory Swiftness proc to 20 sec? That would make DoC stronger AND allow us to use HT/roots/hibernate when we need it. It would certainly lower the overhealing, because we could use it more appropriately.

I like the change to FoN. It's good in PvE - and genius in PvP. Will make it hard for rogues to re-stealth, assuming that treant mechanics stay unchanged.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:53 am

How would making PS proc last 20 seconds reduce over healing? As it is it really doesn't take that many seconds to get 4 combo points needed before using the HT. You still would have to use it every 5-8 seconds as that's when it's time to use a finisher.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Oceansalt » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:39 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Credit where credit is due. Edgy and Aggixx are the guys responsible for this. Thanks for continuing to do sim's to prove our point. We aren't exactly back to where we used to be, but its way better having at choice at all.

Thank you two very much, Edgy and Aggixx. :)

Another question for the new Treant-buff on PTR, are those new trees now viable?
Cannot imagine that but I would love to see some simnumbers.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby raffy » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:01 am

I took a stab at it, I'm sure this will change:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4574&start=525#p18809

DoC+FoN is going to be a lot to handle. Wasting FoN charges by sitting 3 charges is a no-no. Needing to burn 3x FoN late (so the guardian stat update happens) during a Rune proc is a lot of button mashing during the time you're trying to get DoC active an get a fresh Rake/Rip going.

I like the numbers I produced, they seem appropriate for an active replacement to passive SotF. Additionally, if you have an equal-quality caster weapon that won't proc a Mastery during Wrath spam, HotW casting seems somewhat viable on the PTR.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Oceansalt » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:31 am

raffy wrote:I took a stab at it, I'm sure this will change:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4574&start=525#p18809

DoC+FoN is going to be a lot to handle. Wasting FoN charges by sitting 3 charges is a no-no. Needing to burn 3x FoN late (so the guardian stat update happens) during a Rune proc is a lot of button mashing during the time you're trying to get DoC active an get a fresh Rake/Rip going.

I like the numbers I produced, they seem appropriate for an active replacement to passive SotF. Additionally, if you have an equal-quality caster weapon that won't proc a Mastery during Wrath spam, HotW casting seems somewhat viable on the PTR.


Thanks again, Edgy.

I'm kind of curious that DoC+FoN will be weak without RoR, and you have to play with DoC+SotF without RoR.
And I just guess that this will happen pretty fast. Otherwise I can imagine that FoN is still stronger than SotF in burst- and execute-phases.
How about that? ( And again: I'm sorry for those questions, maybe I'm too deep in my own little catworld right now. :< )
And tbh right now I would think of binding FoN to Rake or Shred. Maybe that would be a waste but I don't know if their Rake counts as one Rake if you got more than one Treant or if it counts for every single Treant? If every Treant got it's own Rake then binding it to a makro doesn't seem that bad to me.
But maybe I'm just thinking too much right now.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby raffy » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:42 am

I tested DoC+FoN, my gear, swap Rune for Renataki:
Rune: 263.8K vs. NoRune: 250.1K

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