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Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby aggixx » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:07 am

So there's currently 2 (or 3) bugs with Force of Nature on PTR atm (thanks to Vularo for finding some of these):
1. The periodic damage of Rake is increased by 30% if the Rake is applied while you have Dream of Cenarius active.
2. The last tick of Rake ignores resilience.
3. They spawn in front of the target which means their Rake (and possibly first melee swing) are subject to 7.5% chance to be parried and 6.9% chance to be blocked.

And a bug I found (that, might I add, took a while to figure out what was causing it): Dream of Cenarius was only buffed to the 30% for PERIODIC damage. The increase to abilities that deal direct damage is still at 25%.

I've submitted bug reports for these issues.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:18 pm

aggixx wrote:So there's currently 2 (or 3) bugs with Force of Nature on PTR atm (thanks to Vularo for finding some of these):
1. The periodic damage of Rake is increased by 30% if the Rake is applied while you have Dream of Cenarius active.
2. The last tick of Rake ignores resilience.
3. They spawn in front of the target which means their Rake (and possibly first melee swing) are subject to 7.5% chance to be parried and 6.9% chance to be blocked.

And a bug I found (that, might I add, took a while to figure out what was causing it): Dream of Cenarius was only buffed to the 30% for PERIODIC damage. The increase to abilities that deal direct damage is still at 25%.

I've submitted bug reports for these issues.


I just went on the PTR and have been able to reproduce the DoC buff on treants (no DoC 9363 tick, with DoC 12172; exactly 30%).
Tiger's Fury had no effect on the treant's rake or melee hits.
Savage Roar had no effect on the treant's rake or melee hits.
Trinkets, potions and the flask worked as usual (Rune & AoC, agility).
Nature's Vigil had no effect on either rake or melee hits (nor did the damage cause any healing).

The sad part is that Guardian treants do not seem to have any abilities which scale with stats (only does melee anyway) so using HotW + treants seemed to make no difference what-so-ever.


More mechanics: stat update delay seems to be at 2-3 seconds still (ie. shifting out of cat form while treants are active will lower their damage after 3sec). This seems to be cumulative since if I cast a treant, shift out of cat form and shift back into it after 1-2 sec it will still gain a time period of lower stats identical to the time I was not in cat form.

The treant's rake can be parried/dodged/blocked and his melee attacks glance (I assume the same as normal players, the treant is level 90 for a level 90 player).
Since I'm a troll I also tested it with Berserking and it seemed to increase the treant's melee attacks as expected but it sadly didn't last the entire treant's duration and with the lag it was rather awkward to test.

Using Ursol's Vortex on the target before summoning treants has no weird side-effects (I had to).
T16 2set had no weird side-effects with treants.

An annoying "glitch" seems to be that if you summon treants and then swap targets the summoned treants will spazz out for a moment and start moving towards your current target then turn around and hit whatever they were summoned on.


Edit:

The treants do not proc any of your trinkets/dancing steel and they do not give Capacitance charges nor do they trigger the legendary cloak. Summoning them CAN trigger trinkets and dancing steel (but not the rest). I guess it works similar Faerie Fire.

I've been thinking, the rake the treants apply seem to expire exactly as he disappears, it would be great if they couple re-apply a rake just before dying to make them a bit worthwhile (them disappearing shouldn't have any side-effect on the rake still being present).


Edit2:

Shenanigans:

the macro

/cast Force of Nature
/cast Force of Nature
/cast Force of Nature


Seems to trigger only 2 treants.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby AsgardFM » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:19 am

Another thought regarding FoN.

Without the energy return from finishers, would FoN cause Shred to become stronger than Mangle in terms of longterm DPE? When you combine it with the loss of 2x15 it means that we get nothing back from finishers and, other than emergency Rune proc CP generation, I can't see why Mangle would still be the stronger.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:24 am

AsgardFM wrote:Another thought regarding FoN.

Without the energy return from finishers, would FoN cause Shred to become stronger than Mangle in terms of longterm DPE? When you combine it with the loss of 2x15 it means that we get nothing back from finishers and, other than emergency Rune proc CP generation, I can't see why Mangle would still be the stronger.


With mangle it will still be easier to handle T16 4set with and the 2set might be a bit easier to pull off if you're energy starved. As for the differences themselves, you'll probably have to sim them for your specific gear. There's going to be quite some time until we break T15 4set and once we do, we might find other rotation-related quirks caused by 5.4 (hell, blizzard might even release 5.4.2-16b_2 and fix/break some more things).
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby baver » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:15 pm

What do you mean by not break t15 4set bonus for quite some time? Will we "need" to wait for heroic pieaces until its worth it or how did you come to this conclusion?

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:18 pm

In my own gear with no procs, shred is marginally ahead of mangle in effective DPE (assuming CP are spent on ferocious bite) without T15 4P and without SotF. Of course, realistically you may need to mangle more for rip/roar.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:04 pm

baver wrote:What do you mean by not break t15 4set bonus for quite some time? Will we "need" to wait for heroic pieaces until its worth it or how did you come to this conclusion?


Assuming upgraded heroic tier pieces here. The T15 2/4sets are both more powerful than a single 553 upgrade in those slots so you'll most likely be staggering your previous tier set upgrades from T15 4set to 2/2set into T16 4set. Judging by the start of T15, this alone took me almost 5 weeks so I'm in no rush to go shotgun on tier loot optimization. Granted, the Flex raids will give you a chance to get an extra chance to get an extra set item or two albeit with lower item level but you'll more likely to be doing that for 4set only.

On that note, we still hadn't had a darkwood spiritstaff drop (either on FLR/normal/heroic) and had our first heroic rune drop last week for the first time after 4 months (no one coined it either). Most of the other non-tier, non-trinket items are prime candidates for immediate upgrades unless they have stupid amounts of expertise or hit. We even have several weapons to choose from this tier and our to-be BiS trinket is not dropping from the last boss. All in all, looks like a rather relaxed end-tier raid as far as itemization goes.

TL;DR - trinkets > set bonuses > item level
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:38 am

Quick observation: the T16 4P combo point-granting effect is hostile and will aggro things. This means you can't pre-generate 3 combo points on a boss. (Found this out the hard way!)

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:21 am

Likely why they made the buff 12 seconds too.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:17 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Likely why they made the buff 12 seconds too.


Wasn't it 12 seconds for quite some time already though (like 3+ builds)? By the way, are there any conditions in the action list for the T16 4set regarding to energy pooling (ie. if we add the new 90-pool FB change, will the 4set cause you to cap energy?)
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Cetlysm » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:18 pm

So what do you do when you get rune to proc 5 times back to back with set 2 and 4 T16?
Not even using SotF and I'm swimming on extra cp and energy, thrash uptime 90%+, rip and rake always buffed with doc and rune, and set 2 proccing every 3 seconds so using rake spam vs 50%dmg on shred seems sort of equal and my bites are not critting that much
Using rune + CD trinket, but switching to Haromm's doesn't change much in terms of overflooding with rune procs, just helps with cp and energy.
This is all selfbuffed, Ive never seen rune proc so much, I thought they nerfed rppm stuff and just reduced the ICD to 10 sec.

oh and yeah, the set 4 duration is really low, 12 sec forces you to sometimes just throw cheap finishers just to get the free 3 cp when you're trying to pool energy or wait for cps.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby aggixx » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:48 pm

Cetlysm wrote:So what do you do when you get rune to proc 5 times back to back with set 2 and 4 T16?

Whichever does more damage; if it's negligible it's negligible and that's just how it is. Don't be afraid to FB during RoR if you're not going to be able clip for a better Rip.

It also seems possible that forsaking a small Rip damage increase to use the 4p buff before it expires would be a DPS gain.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby swep » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:20 pm

Hey guys. exactly how good these t16 set bonuses are compared to t15 hc. Im competing against a mage and a rogue for the vanq tokens, and im wondering if its justifiable to get set bonuses over them?

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:43 pm

You likely shouldn't get in front of the rogue. They are getting a big nerf to their T15 set bonuses, so them getting T16 (which is super good for them as well) should likely come before you. I get to compete with 2 rogues, 4 mages, 2 other druids, and 2 DKs so I know I am not going to be seeing tier any time soon.

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