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Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

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Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby Sibylle » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:24 pm

Hi folks,

sorry for the slightly dramatic headline. I'm just really tired and frustrated right now, and maybe you can see what I don't see.

First of all, I've never been anywhere near the level of a Tinder or Stenhaldi, or others on this forum. I am, however, fairly fanatic about kitty-ing, soak up all info like a sponge, and during Dragon Soul - with my Alliance feral - got a few WoL rankings and was usually at over 90% of a ranking.

These days, I'm between 40-60% of a ranking.

Here's a log of our first heroic Twin Consorts kill today:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fwfjvou90bfssx9y/analyze/dd/source/?s=9347&e=9985 (I'm Tialy)

Remarks:
Uptimes are not ideal, I realise that. My point is, that on some of the shorter tries I was high into the 90s % with Rip and Rake (and SR) and I still only did around the same dps.

Mitigating circumstances:
- I'm just back from a WoW break and arrived into ToT two months late. Today was the first time I killed Twin Consorts in either normal or heroic (only done LFR so far). When I'm new to a fight, I tend to look for survival more than perfect execution.
- My ilevel is 513, none of my group's other members is below 530.
- I don't have a 4-piece bonus

And yet. Does it have to be THIS terrible?

As a comparison, here's a less-than-atrocious example from Tortos (normal) yesterday:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4lnqxwletnlh2amz/sum/damageDone/?s=7168&e=7343

My armory:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/draenor/Tialy/advanced


Any help is much appreciated. I feel so embarrassed and ashamed right now. This group is the only raid in our large and active but fairly casual guild that's doing heroic modes, and I'm hoping to get a spot there some day (right now I'm just filling in when people are on holiday). I really need to improve my performance though, otherwise there's no point.
Last edited by Sibylle on Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I suck.

Postby baver » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:38 pm

After rewrite shit for 15min i will just say that you need to increase your uptime on rip/rake/sr and try to find out when to clip rip/rake when your trinket proccs, this is one of those things that make a good feral to a great feral. you might want to try one of those addons that tells you what buttons to press next and see if that will increase your dps (never tryd them so dont know how good they are)

Also, dont look at what ranking % you get when you are this behind with no cloak/meta etc, dont know what dps you "should" do but i should not worry to much about it aslong you know you can improve on the stuff your lacking abit atm

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Re: I suck.

Postby Bethany » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:46 pm

Your ilvl is very low, I wouldnt worry about the lack of ranks/dps at that mark... realistically you're entry level normal mode geared and comparing yourself against people who've farmed heroics for quite some time.

I mean, I'm at 537 and my guild is sadly only 3/13H. That difference in ilvl is huge.

For Twins, you get hurt with no warlock, I'd hate to do this fight without soul swap :( Being able to multi-bleed the two of them is amazing.

For N Tortos - You could improve your overall numbers by hardcasting thrash on the bats (especially with RoRo up) and getting a HotW+Hurricane going on another wave.

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Re: I suck.

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:47 pm

You're numbers really aren't "terrible" for your ilvl (515). You're also missing the 10% attack power buff which is quite huge for us (any warrior, dk or hunter will provide this).

Granted these will be a little off since there's some aoe in heroic twin cons depending how you do the fight.

Running you through simcraft (as well as myself) I get:
You in Simc = ~140k DPS (150k if you had 10% ap buff, also factored out stormlash and skull banner as you don't have those)
You on twins = ~108k DPS
Percent of Simc = 77%

Me in Simc = ~237k DPS
Me on twins = ~232k DPS (I actually died and its our only H twin cons kill; also happens to be 25 man)
Percent of Simc = 98%

Missing the 4 piece hurts your Aoe DPS a LOT as it buffs the crit of all targets hit by swipe.
No cloak and No legendary meta hurts as well.

Are there things you can do to improve? Defiantly. Your biggest problem is absolutely your uptimes. After that its about gaming buffs for the best bleeds (which you don't appear to be doing well either as your bleed damage is significantly under simc's but that could just be rng), but generally speaking any bleed > no bleed.

I highly recommend getting Ovale and Nerien's (2 addons, the nernian's just has extra scripts for ovale) and practicing with that, use either leafkiller's or ShmooDude's script (honestly mine, ShmooDude's, is probably better for a beginner/button spammer because it takes the guessing out of whether you can apply a bleed before a buff expires; experts it probably doesn't make much of a difference for them).

I would not, however, expect to pull the same number as those mages without A) a different comp containing 10% attack power buff and B) more gear. You can defiantly get closer though (ie pull like 3/4 their numbers instead of ~half)

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Re: I suck.

Postby baver » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:56 pm

just have to ask, where and how do you sim your char? i just never tryd doing it because i dont know anything about it but would be fun to know how :)

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Re: I suck.

Postby Sibylle » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:29 am

Thanks guys, this is all amazingly helpful!

Some remarks on different points you mentioned:

- It's true that my uptimes still need work. On some attempts I'm mostly there, on others I don't manage to refresh my bleeds before the Nuclear explosion and then I sit there cowered behind the ice comet, cursing fluently while I watch my Rake and Rip drop off Suen.

- It's also true that I haven't paid attention to bleed ratios so far. I've only been away for 6 months but I haven't really raided for about a year and yes I am a bit rusty. So I thought, I'll get the basics together first. The bleed ratios are the next step, and I think it's time now to work on them.

- I'm still catching up on the legendary quest, so this problem should be solved soon. Same goes for the 4-piece bonus (if that $§%/& Dark Animus would finally drop my tier chest!!) and the item level.

- The group usually has a hunter so normally the attack power buff is there. There are no rogues or locks for symbiosis, although this week we did have a rogue who was also filling in. Because this was a new heroic fight for the group and a completely new fight for me, I chose a priest's disperson for symbiosis instead.

- Question: Is it worth casting HotW-Hurricane on Tortos's bats with a blue 463 int weapon? I cast decent Tranquilities but I'm not sure whether it beats Thrash + Swipe at this ilevel.

Thanks again, you guys rock :)

-the much more hopeful Tialy
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Re: I suck.

Postby ShmooDude » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:59 am

Just wanted to double down on my recommendation for Ovale as I didn't see it mentioned in your reply. Anytime anyone asks me about improving their dps this is pretty much my goto answer and I haven't had anyone say that its made things worse.

As far as hotw hurricane, not sure its worth the effort for one bat pack given the 6 minute cooldown. Even with the 463 it'd probably be a small DPS up, but I probably wouldn't bother as it won't be significant unless there's a specific time the bats come down that your raid falls behind. I really only use it for long term aoe (at least 20 seconds worth which really doesn't show up this tier).

baver wrote:just have to ask, where and how do you sim your char? i just never tryd doing it because i dont know anything about it but would be fun to know how :)


Download the latest Simcraft and import your character. Not too hard, the hard part is aggixx and raffy's job which is trying to tell it the best rotation to use, lol. Not really recommended to compare between classes/specs (ie don't use it to know if you should be out dpsing that other person in your group) as different specs have different levels of support.

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Re: I suck.

Postby Sibylle » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:31 am

Thanks :) And yes, I did see your point about Ovale - I just didn't comment on everything to avoid writing a novel, hehe. It's a very good point. I don't usually like ability-suggesting addons, and last year I got to 97/98% uptimes on my own, but if it isn't happening this time around I'll give Ovale a go. I've complete confidence in the work of the people on this forum and *really* value your opinions.
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Re: I suck.

Postby ShmooDude » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:57 am

Sibylle wrote:Thanks :) And yes, I did see your point about Ovale - I just didn't comment on everything to avoid writing a novel, hehe. It's a very good point. I don't usually like ability-suggesting addons, and last year I got to 97/98% uptimes on my own, but if it isn't happening this time around I'll give Ovale a go. I've complete confidence in the work of the people on this forum and *really* value your opinions.


Thing is, bleed up times aren't enough to do the best feral dps anymore (High uptimes will get you most of the way there though). You also gotta up your average bleed damage (raking every time its 12% better; letting rake expire with strong bleeds; ripping anytime its 15% better or will provide more damage in execute range; thrash not so much cause its lowest on the priority list and too high an opportunity cost to really mess with overwriting early). The fact that you're also overwriting bleeds early also helps your uptime (mostly rip cause it falls off less; Rake uptime actually goes down by ~1% because letting a strong rake expire is better than refreshing it at <3 seconds and losing that last strong tick).

For example: my theoretical DPS is ~246k with the simcraft rotation matching my version of the ovale script. If I take out all the overwrite logic and only maintain bleeds, I drop to 231k or ~6% less (in HotW, I don't do much DoC).

Is it doable without ovale? Absolutely, many people do. Do I recommend doing it without ovale? Defiantly not. Honestly, I really love using ovale because I can blindly follow its suggestions (using my version of the script, using leafkiller's you need to be careful when buffs are expiring so you don't overwrite a good bleed with a lesser one) and get probably as good or better results than making the decisions myself and also frees my brainpower up to focus on mechanics (especially on new fights). Now, you do still have to have a good general idea of the rotation (so you know what to expect), but you no longer need to know the exact right move for every situation (when to FB or hold the CPs for Rip/Savage Roar is a great example).

I've tried moving off ovale several times but its always ended in disaster (bit of an exaggeration). The biggest difference between ovale and say a well setup droodfocus is that ovale will explicitly tell you what to do vs giving you the data to make the right decision (which I'm sure I could *eventually* learn to do, but why fix what ain't broken). Even if you don't want to primarily use ovale, having it there isn't gonna hurt anything (unless you have a very old CPU in which case it might drop your fps too much using my version of the script) and you could reference it only when you're unsure of the right move and otherwise primarily use droodfocus.

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Re: I suck.

Postby Paloro » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:25 pm

I don't suggest to use addons that tell you what to do. Instead, spend as much time as you can on a target dummy. Practice with weaving in FB and experience first hand the good and bad RNG portions of it.

Don't hang yourself up with the damage meters just yet. First learn what flows well before altering your playstyle.
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Re: I suck.

Postby Sibylle » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:29 pm

Well, I'm not a beginner, just a bit rusty like I said :) My problem is movement and target switching, so I'll give ovale a try for a while at least until I get the hang of it. Then I might switch to droodfocus only, we'll see.

Thanks again folks, I really appreciate all the input!
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Re: I suck.

Postby Bethany » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:38 pm

ShmooDude wrote:As far as hotw hurricane, not sure its worth the effort for one bat pack given the 6 minute cooldown. Even with the 463 it'd probably be a small DPS up, but I probably wouldn't bother as it won't be significant unless there's a specific time the bats come down that your raid falls behind. I really only use it for long term aoe (at least 20 seconds worth which really doesn't show up this tier).


As far as it being "worth it", it most certainly is. I wouldn't worry about your weapon if it's that far behind your current agi stick though. Our last normal kill I didnt weapon swap at all and the results are shown below.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 343&e=1592

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Re: I suck.

Postby Sibylle » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:35 am

That's very impressive, Bethany. I actually thought so, I was just looking for confirmation. HotW is powerful, I saved our asses the other day with a tranq during Iron Qon's Fist Smash. Will add the Tortos Hurricane to my repertoire next time, on a bat pack when I don't have TF or Berserk available :)
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Re: I suck.

Postby Whitepaw » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:40 am

<--- Old time raider, now full-time LFR Hero...

I sometimes get invited to do ToT 10 man HC, even though my ilvl is only 510. I am 4/13 HC, mostly carried ofc 8-)

However, I do pull higher numbers, mostly around 140 - 150k, single-target. My secret is called Droodfocus (http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/droodfocus). With that, I can setup icons with timers that show all my bleeds, debuffs, SR and procs/charges. The most important with DoC are PS proc and DoC charges. This allows me to time PS+HT casts with +/- 0.5 sec (I also have a GCD tracker to get more precision).

Droodfocus also shows you if a bleed should be replaced (small green icon = replace because you have a proc that makes it better. Red icon = do not replace). It's simply amazing. I also use ArcHUD 3 (http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/archud3), to give me perfect situational awareness of my hp and energy level.

These 2 addons alone let me keep my eyes in the center of the screen. I am able to control the level of information and keep track of my bleeds.

PS: I'd suggest you replace your FB glyph with Shred. I did yesterday - it's amazing tbh! Jin'rokh received several Shreds to his face :D

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Re: I suck.

Postby Sibylle » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:03 pm

Little update from me :)

Can I start with "thanks"? Bethany, Shmoo, Paloro... you guys rock. I've said it before but seriously, it shows the quality of the people on this forum that players of average skill and performance like me get help and advice too. I'm doing so much better now.

Everything's not perfect by far, but I feel I'm getting somewhere and I don't feel completely useless anymore.

What changed? First of all, the "outside" factors:
My ilevel is now 522 (up from 513) and I have the 4-piece set. Also, we had a hunter tonight and therefore the attack power buff.

What I did:
I track my bleed ratios now and pay more attention to uptimes. Still needs work but a huge improvement.

On Jin'Rokh hc I did ok but was still finding my stride.
On Horridon hc I stayed on the boss and did 209k single target dps - the first time ever that I did over 200k dps to anything. Then I got cocky, didn't move away for the Dire Call, and my kinky pink dino spawned right on top of me. Splat. Ahem.
Here's Council hc - my former horror-fight with dps of around 118k. I'm over 80% of a ranking now (I'm Tialy). Dumdedum!
And here Tortos hc.

Oh, and then we started on Magaera heroic and on one attempt (we got to about the third head), I checked my debuff uptimes on Skada and Rake was at 100%. I know it's silly, it was only a short attempt, but I couldn't stop grinning at myself.

<3
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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby Qualiti » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:39 pm

It only gets better :p

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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby Bethany » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:51 am

Glad things are starting to look up for you :)

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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby xahn » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:31 am

Bethany wrote:Your ilvl is very low, I wouldnt worry about the lack of ranks/dps at that mark... realistically you're entry level normal mode geared and comparing yourself against people who've farmed heroics for quite some time.

I mean, I'm at 537 and my guild is sadly only 3/13H. That difference in ilvl is huge.

For Twins, you get hurt with no warlock, I'd hate to do this fight without soul swap :( Being able to multi-bleed the two of them is amazing.

For N Tortos - You could improve your overall numbers by hardcasting thrash on the bats (especially with RoRo up) and getting a HotW+Hurricane going on another wave.


Hi Bethany, I read your comment about soul swap and how awesome it is to be able to multi-bleed the two of them? which is why I am posting this to ask you, for me soul swap doesn't do what you just said, I kinda sworn that its purpose is to move your current bleeds to a new target, which makes the old target bleeds fade out and continue running on a new target, which means they aren't a realistic multi-bleed on two targets rather than only keeping or own bleeds running on a new target, am I understanding this wrong? Let me know. on twins personally I rather use rogues redirect

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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby baver » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:05 pm

The good thing about soulswap is that you can have full bleeds on maintarget and have 5combopoint ready so when the other boss spawn you can just get bleeds over and rip your maintarget again so you dont lose that much uptime on bleeds on maintarget. Also im kinda sure that redirect are not up for every time the other boss spawn + it dont have 40 yard imba range like sw ;)

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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:55 pm

To be specific when you Soul Swap your Rake and your Rip move to the new target (Thrash does not move). However the combo points you had build on the primary target are still there. If you have 4-5 combo points its as simple as Soul Swap, Rake, Rip and you then have 2 targets with full bleeds.

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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby xahn » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:10 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:To be specific when you Soul Swap your Rake and your Rip move to the new target (Thrash does not move). However the combo points you had build on the primary target are still there. If you have 4-5 combo points its as simple as Soul Swap, Rake, Rip and you then have 2 targets with full bleeds.


That is cool trick, I'm glad I joined this forums, I am learning already. But what if as you say the primary target has 4-5 pnts, then you soul swap to new target, but then you start to attack that new target with mangle, doesn't the 4-5 pnts go away, which means it doesn't matter how many combo pnts you had on the primary target if the case scenario of the fight requires you to start attacking that new target?

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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby cg1351 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:44 pm

Why would you start mangling the other target instantly if you can get a fresh set of dots rolling on this target with full bleeds on the other target already?

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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby aggixx » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:02 am

Soul Swap is a lot more useful for multidotting than target swapping. It's pretty rare that you're going to leave a target and not care about the residual damage, except for when that target is about to die.
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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby CuTtLeD » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:24 am

On the subject of Soul Swap, I can't for the love of me get this to work(if anyone could set me straight, I would be eternally greatful):

/cast [target=mouseover] Soul Swap

Finally playing Feral again, and was under the impression I have used this earlier...Must be getting old.
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Re: Edit: I don't suck (so much) anymore.

Postby Steakbomb » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:33 am

Try

/cast [@mouseover] Soul Swap
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