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Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

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Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby rebelfish » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:17 am

Let's discuss the issue by my case.

The simc version 530
Buff :only self buff
Time: 600S

We had made Mangle 5 times and Shred 5 times
The simc result for mangle is 219957 shred 219671

My Mangle result 226716 shred 237005

The issue is ,with the gear supported, we already have enough CP to maintain the dots, and release as many FB as possible.
While using mangle, the extra FB seems cannot catch up the 20% damage distance.

Would you please provide the detail simc math method for us, to re-caculate the the dps?
Thanks.

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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby rebelfish » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:30 am

sorry the armony cannot be linked, it seems banned by the bbs.
It's the 25H8, cat dps ranking 1.

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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby ShmooDude » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:45 am

rebelfish wrote:...
The issue is ,with the gear supported, we already have enough CP to maintain the dots, and release as many FB as possible.
While using mangle, the extra FB seems cannot catch up the 20% damage distance.
...


Except its not just extra FB damage, you also get better uptime on Rip and longer average duration on Savage Roar (and more energy w/ sotf due to likely more uses of savage roar at high combo points). All this added together results in mangle being equal to or better than shred as a filler in all non-high energy situations (omen of clarity or berserk; sometimes bloodlust/heroism)

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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby rebelfish » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:00 am

ShmooDude wrote:
rebelfish wrote:...
The issue is ,with the gear supported, we already have enough CP to maintain the dots, and release as many FB as possible.
While using mangle, the extra FB seems cannot catch up the 20% damage distance.
...


Except its not just extra FB damage, you also get better uptime on Rip and longer average duration on Savage Roar (and more energy w/ sotf due to likely more uses of savage roar at high combo points). All this added together results in mangle being equal to or better than shred as a filler in all non-high energy situations (omen of clarity or berserk; sometimes bloodlust/heroism)


yes of course, now the situation is ,even using shred, we can already have nearly 97% uptime on rip.and this up time is really hard to improve more by changing to mangle. With the gear ilv 557, it seems CP bacomes sort of easy meal... you can find our avarage dps is higher than the simc.I just wonder if the simc dps has a ilv cap, for example, if haste can support ,will shred be better than mangle again?

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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby ShmooDude » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:14 am

rebelfish wrote:yes of course, now the situation is ,even using shred, we can already have nearly 97% uptime on rip.and this up time is really hard to improve more by changing to mangle. With the gear ilv 557, it seems CP bacomes sort of easy meal... you can find our avarage dps is higher than the simc.I just wonder if the simc dps has a ilv cap, for example, if haste can support ,will shred be better than mangle again?


Simc will currently (well my version anyhow) switch to shred when energy regen reaches 15 energy per second, berserk is up or omen of clarity is proc'd. I'm unsure how certain we are that this is the threshold for the switch back but it won't be attainable outside bloodlust/heroism/primordius buff even next tier.

Switching from mangle/shred hybrid to shred only is still DPS neutral or DPS down at my ilvl 545 gear, I don't know that 557 will be enough to push it over (I'd bet not). Honestly though, if you prefer shred, feel free to use it, the difference isn't enough that its really gonna hurt you. Mangle is just generally easier (no positional requirement, less energy makes for a bit easier rotation).

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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby aggixx » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:14 pm

ShmooDude wrote:I'm unsure how certain we are that this is the threshold for the switch back but it won't be attainable outside bloodlust/heroism/primordius buff even next tier.

It's pretty arbitrary. Will add it to my list of things to try out when I get a chance.
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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:30 pm

Mangle is marginally better than shred (assuming no energy capping) if the combo points won't be wasted. It's pretty simple algebra to show that ferocious bite does indeed make up the difference. But it is necessary that the combo points not be wasted and so if I anticipate that mangle won't buy me any additional finishers (due to rip/roar timing), I'll also switch to shred.

(This is in addition to the obvious shred on clearcast and (usually) during berserk.)

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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby rebelfish » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:04 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Mangle is marginally better than shred (assuming no energy capping) if the combo points won't be wasted. It's pretty simple algebra to show that ferocious bite does indeed make up the difference. But it is necessary that the combo points not be wasted and so if I anticipate that mangle won't buy me any additional finishers (due to rip/roar timing), I'll also switch to shred.

(This is in addition to the obvious shred on clearcast and (usually) during berserk.)


I think maybe this is the point.Sometimes we wait for rip/roar timing with trinet effect and have to waste CP, after all a rip combined with tiger fury , Re-Origination and high buffed Renataki is really super and above all.

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Re: Mangle vs Shred by 1 billion DMG, simc seems wrong

Postby raffy » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:20 am

With the fixes from this last weekend, I redid Mangle, Shred, and Mangle+Shred and Mangle+Shred came out on top, but they're all pretty close:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4574&start=425#p18214

I still say, once you factor in latency, ability lag, bosses spinning around to cast, human error, the Mangle-heavy (maybe except for Berserk/Hero) is the best. I wish there was more to optimize (like Mangle buffing Shred and Shred buffing Mangle) but since they're so close, the easiest to perform (Mangle) wins.

Smarter Rip/Rake clipping is probably the biggest bang for the buck in terms of optimization.

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