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expertise cap

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expertise cap

Postby MizBear » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:11 pm

Just how important is it to be expertise capped with HoTW? I heard it was less important, but I'm thinking those dodge's might lower my dps? thoughts?

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:42 pm

It's important. Having a miss streak happen when you are trying to refresh bleeds for a trinket proc can be a big hit. There is no good reason to be under the expertise softcap.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby raffy » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:44 pm

Recently, I noticed Stenhaldi was below Exp cap and I asked him if he knew of some bug, because I was pretty sure dropping below the Hit/Exp cap was a loss, but I hadn't tested it in a while, so I was curious. He assured me there is no bug :p but that he chose the L92 Exp cap for T15.

Catus Beta (which only uses PTR changes) sims his gear slightly higher than the default "Hit/Exp At Least 2550" 1:1:1 suggestion. This is just one example (I didn't test a cleave encounter) but sloppy Hit/Exp can definitely work for HotW. There are some encounters where this might be a good idea (more AoE) and some where this is bad (single-target w/ low uptime.)

Since the delta is small, I'd suggest satisfying the caps for the QoL improvement but as with any minor optimization, I'd suggest loading your Feral into Catus or Simc and testing it yourself.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:11 pm

I'd personally never use ''atleast 2550'' option but rather use near with a 50 range if you can get it or anything near that number. Hit/exp are important to an extent but going over them at all will be a dps loss and we get refunded energy so it aint a killer for us.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby baver » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:02 am

I rather go below by 40 points then over atleast, but i try to get close to hit/expertise cap i can. Would never go like 1-2% below hit/expertise cap tho, even if it would be a dps gain on paper

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Sibylle » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:36 pm

How do you guys even MANAGE to stay below the expertise cap in current gear? I have every single piece of exp reforged away, but ever since I got heroic Renataki's, I've been sitting at 10%...
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Re: expertise cap

Postby MizBear » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:44 pm

Ive been sitting at 7.34% and wondering if its worth fiddling to 7.5

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Re: expertise cap

Postby aggixx » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:45 pm

Yes, try using Catus, AskMrRobot, WoWReforge, or ReforgeLite and you should be able to get there handily.
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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:52 pm

No, that is a good amount to have. It's really not worth going over.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby aggixx » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:35 pm

7.34% is quite low and would indicate to me that it was done by hand. Even if you don't want to waste stats by going over the cap there's bound to be a better fit than that.
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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:44 am

:O that's such a small chance to dodge... and would allow higher rune proc damage.. first time ive ever heard someone say 7.34% is low lol

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Ekthelion » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:17 am

Maybe it's "low", but I don't want to think, how pissed I would have been missing *dat* RoR+9-10 Renatahi+DoC Rake/Rip :)
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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:17 am

Ekthelion wrote:Maybe it's "low", but I don't want to think, how pissed I would have been missing *dat* RoR+9-10 Renatahi+DoC Rake/Rip :)


0.16% to dodge any of your attacks, chances that happens in your situation? I'm always slightly under hit and exp cap unless by some miracle i manage to get exactly 2550 which has happened a few times but i never notice the misses or dodges.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Alpheus » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:40 am

cg1351 wrote:
Ekthelion wrote:Maybe it's "low", but I don't want to think, how pissed I would have been missing *dat* RoR+9-10 Renatahi+DoC Rake/Rip :)


0.16% to dodge any of your attacks, chances that happens in your situation? I'm always slightly under hit and exp cap unless by some miracle i manage to get exactly 2550 which has happened a few times but i never notice the misses or dodges.


No point really arguing about this. Fact is it will happen and the consequence is always going to be negative. If you don't care about min/maxing your dps then you can go ahead and drop it as you wish.
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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:24 am

Alpheus wrote:
cg1351 wrote:
Ekthelion wrote:Maybe it's "low", but I don't want to think, how pissed I would have been missing *dat* RoR+9-10 Renatahi+DoC Rake/Rip :)


0.16% to dodge any of your attacks, chances that happens in your situation? I'm always slightly under hit and exp cap unless by some miracle i manage to get exactly 2550 which has happened a few times but i never notice the misses or dodges.


No point really arguing about this. Fact is it will happen and the consequence is always going to be negative. If you don't care about min/maxing your dps then you can go ahead and drop it as you wish.


Except we're refunded energy and it's a fact that hit/expertise aint our strongest secondary stats nor has it ever been. So yeh i will min/max my dps by staying slightly under hit/exp and getting more mastery/haste/crit for rune proc (but what do i know i've only raided in two of the best guilds in the world).

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Alpheus » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:46 am

cg1351 wrote:Except we're refunded energy and it's a fact that hit/expertise aint our strongest secondary stats nor has it ever been. So yeh i will min/max my dps by staying slightly under hit/exp and getting more mastery/haste/crit for rune proc (but what do i know i've only raided in two of the best guilds in the world).


Please, we're talking perhaps ~15 points for mastery, haste, crit each. Our rotation doesn't work in such a way that you give it extra stats and it suddenly goes up. You need to take advantage of trinket procs, 4set, DoC, etc. Most of the time you only have 3-4 seconds to do this and if you sacrificed the ability to actually do it (be it very rarely) for very little extra stats you're going to feel sorry on that one week or one try where you messed up and lost a kill/rank or something. If you're not raiding for any of the latter two and can maintain a high enough attempt-count on bosses to compensate for bad luck then you can freely decide. Overall, it just puts more RNG into RNG, your speed/progression/gear aren't a factor.
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Re: expertise cap

Postby Ekthelion » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:29 am

*****Please lets not turn this place into a flame fest. Don't post if you don't have somthing to contribute. -Tinder ******
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Re: expertise cap

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:14 pm

Alpheus wrote:No point really arguing about this. Fact is it will happen and the consequence is always going to be negative. If you don't care about min/maxing your dps then you can go ahead and drop it as you wish.

I maximize my damage by running 6% expertise. I'd be running 6% hit too if I could get that low.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Alpheus » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:16 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:
Alpheus wrote:No point really arguing about this. Fact is it will happen and the consequence is always going to be negative. If you don't care about min/maxing your dps then you can go ahead and drop it as you wish.

I maximize my damage by running 6% expertise. I'd be running 6% hit too if I could get that low.


Care to explain what made you consider this option?
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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:23 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:
Alpheus wrote:No point really arguing about this. Fact is it will happen and the consequence is always going to be negative. If you don't care about min/maxing your dps then you can go ahead and drop it as you wish.

I maximize my damage by running 6% expertise. I'd be running 6% hit too if I could get that low.



I explained why it's a dps loss to go for the caps as you'll almost always go over cap and WASTE secondary stats and the nature of the rng potentially fucking your dps slightly once every 10 attempts really doesn't matter as your dps will be higher on average and we've always been rng reliant.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:25 pm

Alpheus wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:
Alpheus wrote:No point really arguing about this. Fact is it will happen and the consequence is always going to be negative. If you don't care about min/maxing your dps then you can go ahead and drop it as you wish.

I maximize my damage by running 6% expertise. I'd be running 6% hit too if I could get that low.


Care to explain what made you consider this option?


Alot of cleave on most fights so he's aiming for level 92 hit/exp caps and then stacking into other secondary stats for higher dps.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:34 pm

On average, the value of the additional crit/haste/mastery exceeds that of the hit chance. Sometimes you'll get unlucky but on average it's a gain.

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Re: expertise cap

Postby Alpheus » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:38 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:On average, the value of the additional crit/haste/mastery exceeds that of the hit chance. Sometimes you'll get unlucky but on average it's a gain.


How much of a gain?
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Re: expertise cap

Postby feralminded » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:51 pm

Alpheus wrote:@cg: go troll somewhere else


I understand you are upset but he isn't trolling, in fact both he and stenhaldi have valid points here. I personally cap for convenience but I understand it does cost me a quantifiable (small mind you) amount of DPS. That said since I am Juju I'm sure I could easily afford to wind up under by a small margin and suffer no ill effects (and infact net some of that minor theoretical gain in dps). If I were Rentaki, however, I personally wouldn't risk it. That said I also understand it's a preference at this point as the differences are extremely minor across the board and nothing to get upset about
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Re: expertise cap

Postby cg1351 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:02 pm

Alpheus wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:On average, the value of the additional crit/haste/mastery exceeds that of the hit chance. Sometimes you'll get unlucky but on average it's a gain.


How much of a gain?

@cg: go troll somewhere else


Does it matter how much of a gain if it's a gain? I'm sure we all come on here so we can improve and become the best we can be so why advise people against that?

For anyone reading this thread and getting lost between the bickering, mastery is almost always better for us then hit/exp is but i'd still advise getting a half decent amount of hit/exp for convinience. Stenhaldi probably has the best itemization on stats for this raid content as there is alot of cleave so going for 6% hit/expertise could definitely be ideal but i personally like to focus on boss dps and dont mind expertise being slightly higher then 92 cap as they wont always be facing away from you so you can get less parrys too.

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