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Class Balancing

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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Tremnen » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:01 am

bears have a stigma they don't deserve. but they do have some short comings.

Taking gear that would usually go to DPS players will hurt your raid progression this is obviously a moot point if you somehow found yourself in a raid group with no leather DPS.

until recently they didnt have a low cooldown Cooldown to mitigate damage. The new barkskin however is FANTASTIC.

Very RNG dependent.

The pros though are often understated and I feel that bears would be seen as a great tank if Monks weren't just doing what they do better.

Monks have more mobility, better aoe threat generation, better survivability, better damage, better utility (through statue).

I feel like bears are in a great spot right now (and those tier bonuses are insane! and rightfully deserved their nerf) but Monks are just shining to brightly.

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Re: Class Balancing

Postby aggixx » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:40 pm

Tremnen wrote:Very RNG dependent.

People tend to overstate this when it really isn't true at all, post-Bear Form buff and with the level of RPS and self heals bears are capable of, their damage intake isn't significantly more spikey than other tanks.

A quick example with SimC, 580 geared vs (what is presumably) H Garrosh levels of damage. Take with a large grain of salt of course:
Guardian:
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Paladin:
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(note the labels on the y-axis)
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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Tremnen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:37 am

I used to be a bear main so I know what you are talking about but the issue here is it is easier to heal a tank taking more damage that is less spikey than it is to heal a tank who over a fight will take less damage but is more spikey. Sustained tank damage shouldnt have killed a tank this entire expansion. Spike tank damage has and is what Bears have been terrible about dealign with because of lack of reliable cooldowns. With the new and improved 20 second cooldown barksin yes Bears are great tanks. But that doesn't mean their non cooldown form of mitigation isn't extremely RNG dependent.

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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Alpheus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:12 am

Tremnen wrote:I used to be a bear main so I know what you are talking about but the issue here is it is easier to heal a tank taking more damage that is less spikey than it is to heal a tank who over a fight will take less damage but is more spikey. Sustained tank damage shouldnt have killed a tank this entire expansion. Spike tank damage has and is what Bears have been terrible about dealign with because of lack of reliable cooldowns. With the new and improved 20 second cooldown barksin yes Bears are great tanks. But that doesn't mean their non cooldown form of mitigation isn't extremely RNG dependent.


If anything, Aggix's chart displays paladins to be much more spikey (since their spikes cover higher dtps) but ours are relatively higher if your healers slack off while you're taking basically no damage. The main issue with Guardians the past few tiers is mainly lack of mitigation-based Activate Mitigation (mitigation is in it for a reason) and the bypassing of dodge on most lethal boss mechanics (Tortos, Horridon, Lei Shen, Ra-den).
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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Helistar » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:52 am

Alpheus wrote:If anything, Aggix's chart displays paladins to be much more spikey (since their spikes cover higher dtps)


Uh? The paladin has a much higher average DTPS, but the oscillations are way smaller. Everything is mostly between 70k and 150k. The bear goes from periods of near zero damage up to 150k. For me this is a lot more spikey.....

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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Alpheus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:51 am

Helistar wrote:
Alpheus wrote:If anything, Aggix's chart displays paladins to be much more spikey (since their spikes cover higher dtps)


Uh? The paladin has a much higher average DTPS, but the oscillations are way smaller. Everything is mostly between 70k and 150k. The bear goes from periods of near zero damage up to 150k. For me this is a lot more spikey.....


The magnitudes are larger but the dtps on the spikes is minimal compared to the paladin (ie. no one would complain about a 40k hit when you're getting consistent 1k hits every second with 800k hp)
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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Tremnen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:58 am

Magnitudes are what kill healers. when ncoming heals are tiny because you havent been taking damage then grow a lot this is what I refer to as a tank spike. Bears and Dks have the biggest ones and this is why they arent the top choices for 25 man tanking. Dks are seen as tanks in progression races though because they bring all the cooldowns and LoL Purgatory can fix problems where healing/tank cooldown slipped because they don't have the gear for the content.

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Re: Class Balancing

Postby aggixx » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:37 pm

Tremnen wrote:Magnitudes are what kill healers. when ncoming heals are tiny because you havent been taking damage then grow a lot this is what I refer to as a tank spike. Bears and Dks have the biggest ones and this is why they arent the top choices for 25 man tanking. Dks are seen as tanks in progression races though because they bring all the cooldowns and LoL Purgatory can fix problems where healing/tank cooldown slipped because they don't have the gear for the content.


The druid takes vastly less total damage and the spikes are comparable if not less significant than the paladin in total DTPS. If your healers have no idea what the damage profile of the tank is and just heal them when they're low on HP then sure the guardian is going to be a lot more inefficient to heal, but realistically if your healers are even remotely decent they would have some understanding of how and when the tank takes damage, and if they do it's going to take less total healing to keep the Guardian alive in addition to the Guardian being slightly less vulnerable to spikes.

Even if you were to disagree with this assessment I find it hard to believe someone would think this puts the druid at any significant disadvantage to the paladin.

You also have to consider that in contrast to Savage Defense, Druids have what is probably the most reliable active mitigation of any tank in Frenzied Regeneration. The only con of the ability being that it's reactionary, but even that isn't a huge deal because you're pretty rarely going to be taking life-threatening damage at such a frequent interval that you can't jam an FR in between, as long as you're paying attention.

Tremnen wrote:Spike tank damage has and is what Bears have been terrible about dealign with because of lack of reliable cooldowns. With the new and improved 20 second cooldown barksin yes Bears are great tanks. But that doesn't mean their non cooldown form of mitigation isn't extremely RNG dependent.

I really don't think that's the case. Guardians have 2 incredibly potent and reliable, but one-dimensional, active mitigation abilities: Frenzied Regeneration and Tooth and Claw. What's made Guardian weak was that any time you have a mechanic that causes burst tank damage that cannot be effectively mitigated by either of these two abilities it leaves Guardian at a pretty extreme disadvantage to the other tanks. The Bear Form stamina and Barkskin buffs were made to bandaid this issue, along with the fight mechanics in the new tier being less discriminatory (like having big hitter moves ignoring armor =P).
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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Alpheus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:09 pm

aggixx wrote:
Tremnen wrote:Magnitudes are what kill healers. when ncoming heals are tiny because you havent been taking damage then grow a lot this is what I refer to as a tank spike. Bears and Dks have the biggest ones and this is why they arent the top choices for 25 man tanking. Dks are seen as tanks in progression races though because they bring all the cooldowns and LoL Purgatory can fix problems where healing/tank cooldown slipped because they don't have the gear for the content.


The druid takes vastly less total damage and the spikes are comparable if not less significant than the paladin in total DTPS. If your healers have no idea what the damage profile of the tank is and just heal them when they're low on HP then sure the guardian is going to be a lot more inefficient to heal, but realistically if your healers are even remotely decent they would have some understanding of how and when the tank takes damage, and if they do it's going to take less total healing to keep the Guardian alive in addition to the Guardian being slightly less vulnerable to spikes.

Even if you were to disagree with this assessment I find it hard to believe someone would think this puts the druid at any significant disadvantage to the paladin.

You also have to consider that in contrast to Savage Defense, Druids have what is probably the most reliable active mitigation of any tank in Frenzied Regeneration. The only con of the ability being that it's reactionary, but even that isn't a huge deal because you're pretty rarely going to be taking life-threatening damage at such a frequent interval that you can't jam an FR in between, as long as you're paying attention.

Tremnen wrote:Spike tank damage has and is what Bears have been terrible about dealign with because of lack of reliable cooldowns. With the new and improved 20 second cooldown barksin yes Bears are great tanks. But that doesn't mean their non cooldown form of mitigation isn't extremely RNG dependent.

I really don't think that's the case. Guardians have 2 incredibly potent and reliable, but one-dimensional, active mitigation abilities: Frenzied Regeneration and Tooth and Claw. What's made Guardian weak was that any time you have a mechanic that causes burst tank damage that cannot be effectively mitigated by either of these two abilities it leaves Guardian at a pretty extreme disadvantage to the other tanks. The Bear Form stamina and Barkskin buffs were made to bandaid this issue, along with the fight mechanics in the new tier being less discriminatory (like having big hitter moves ignoring armor =P).


Agreed 100%. Another thing I would like to add here though is the lack (for the lack of better word, no pun intended) of AM-scaling with vengeance. SD doesn't scale with vengeance and Maul/FR have very low efficiency and being either reactionary or ignored (or both). Fact is there are a lot of mechanics out there which can be "adjusted" to work with only one tank by maximizing efficiency from only having said tank getting all the attack power (bigger absorbs, hots, more aggressive stagger management). This allows the raid to drop a tank and usually a healer for extra dps. This is especially potent on 10man (just look at all the zerg tactics in 10man HC ToT).

While this isn't relevant to most 2-3day normal-difficulty raiding guilds, it's still the big guilds who DO prefer certain tanks because of mechanics mentioned above that creates the stigma for the entire population. Stigma leads to lower representation, lower representation leads to less engagement during testing, resulting in worse class balance (just look at ferals and rets during the 5.3->5.4PTR period).
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Re: Class Balancing

Postby teddabear » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:13 am

Bears seem pretty good in 5.4, I agree they were lacking in 5.3. All tanks have strengths and weaknesses now except Brewmasters which appear to have the best of everything. Damage, threat, healing, mobility and a spammable ranged AoE taunt. Up through Garrosh Bears seem pretty good though, hopefully I'll see how they fare in heroics soon.

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Re: Class Balancing

Postby feralminded » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:11 am

Sejta (MT of Paragon) is definitely proving that a guardian has essentially no limits this tier (previously he was forced to play his monk some times). They did one tank Heroic Siegecrafter with just him tanking while Fraggo went Ret. I have recently been pressed into service to tank instead of getting to kitty as I prefer and I can safely say I am the much tougher tank to kill compared to the Paladin.

That said I still feel like he's better for the raid (AM, Sac, raid healing, etc) whereas I'm better at getting hit in the face. DoC essentially gives me an external Lay on Hands (with vengeance it can crit for a full health bar), whereas FR is a personal lay on hands. I definitely do see and feel the lack of mitigation scaling with vengeance but SD is so strong on it's own that it's not a big deal and the new Barkskin really helps to cover our big weakness (magic damage spikes that happen more frequently than every 3 minutes).

I still prefer the paladin on anything that his spikey or consistent magic or unavoidable damage (here's looking at you half the bosses in the raid), but all in all guardians are in a very good place right now. Sure monks still own all tanks but all that means is monks need a correction.
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Re: Class Balancing

Postby Tremnen » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:19 am

feralminded wrote:Sejta (MT of Paragon) is definitely proving that a guardian has essentially no limits this tier (previously he was forced to play his monk some times). They did one tank Heroic Siegecrafter with just him tanking while Fraggo went Ret. I have recently been pressed into service to tank instead of getting to kitty as I prefer and I can safely say I am the much tougher tank to kill compared to the Paladin.

That said I still feel like he's better for the raid (AM, Sac, raid healing, etc) whereas I'm better at getting hit in the face. DoC essentially gives me an external Lay on Hands (with vengeance it can crit for a full health bar), whereas FR is a personal lay on hands. I definitely do see and feel the lack of mitigation scaling with vengeance but SD is so strong on it's own that it's not a big deal and the new Barkskin really helps to cover our big weakness (magic damage spikes that happen more frequently than every 3 minutes).

I still prefer the paladin on anything that his spikey or consistent magic or unavoidable damage (here's looking at you half the bosses in the raid), but all in all guardians are in a very good place right now. Sure monks still own all tanks but all that means is monks need a correction.


I feel like bears got a bad stigma this entire expansion because "That other leather tank" was just so much better than the others. Even with Pally BoPing debuffs Monks were still holding their own as last tier while every other tank was a bit behind. I am sad I am not tanking this tier (switched guilds and they wanted a DPS not a tank) but it looks like guardian is in a great spot tbh. I felt like they were undervalued all expansion and the big buffs they got in 5.4 I don't think have resonated enough with the community at large who don't seem to understand just how big the changes were.

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