Register

Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:55 am

HI Guys,

A guildie helped us get our realm best times on many challenge modes pre 5.4 on her DK but it was off server so now we are trying to beat all of our old times on her main for the Feats of Strength/Titles. So here is my Current BIS list for Challenge Modes / Proving grounds. This list is rough right now and due to the Super RNG of a few pieces (Double Mastery Consort bracers, Timeless Helmet) I will probably be putting out an alternative list if this shows interest.

Proving Ground BIS.png
Proving Ground BIS.png (26.49 KiB) Viewed 14190 times


Rules to Note.

Ilvl of the gear does not matter, The LFR version of these items is just as BIS as the Heroic Thunderforged/Warforged pieces.
Sha-Touched Gems do not work.
Legendary Meta Gems do not work. Get an Agile Primal Diamond
Do to low Proc rate Rune of Re-origination is not very good at all.
Due to Rune of Re-Origination not being very good the stats on the Legendary Cloak are not that great (but probably better than a non socketed cloak).
The extra weapon socket part of the legendary Quest DOES work and is why ToT weapons tend to be the best to take to Challenge Modes/Proving Grounds.
Tier Bonuses do not work.

User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:46 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby JTF195 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:56 am

Nice work. Mind sharing the process you used to generate this list?

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:51 pm

lots of looking over gear lists :P.

For building this gear list I first made this assumption. Agi > Mastery > Attack Power (strength) > Crit > Haste

I am only trying to hit the hit/exp cap for level 92 monsters as that is what comprises 90% of the time you are in challenge modes. (with this gear list you will be a bit over that hit cap (2040 rating) but not over the 93 hit cap so its not a complete loss.

First thing I did was focus on....

Trinkets:
I wanted to stray from Rune as at 463 it becomes a roll of the dice trinket on whether it will win or lose and since I am rolling for Realm bests I'd rather have consistency over the chance at a super crazy dps phase. Trinkets also open up and alter other gearing choices because they sometime come with secondary stats so I wanted to break this down first.

This left me with 4 real contenders for trinkets.

Relix of Xuen is great but because it procs Only off critical hits and we are limited by gear level on our crit levels this isn't so hot after the nerf.

Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault has Great stats +Hit is needed and this has a lot on it. Great Proc and its ICD so you can track when it is about to come back up and store Energy / cooldowns accordingly.

Rentaki's Soul Charm Like Shado-Pan Assault it has a great passive amount of a good secondary stat with its excellent +exp. It is RPPM but it has a SUPER good proc rate now that they buffed it in 5.4.

Discipline of Xuen Great + Agi passive and also ICD for Mastery proc. Syncs with Vicious Talisman. Might honestly be better than Rentaki's because it can sync so well with the Valor trinket My build runs low on Expertise (as I will explain later) so I opt for Rentaki which also adds throughput inbetween the ICD procs.

To Be Continued.... (I am at work right now)

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby raffy » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:55 pm

Sha-Touched Gems do not work

Ah, I didn't know this.

Curious, have you tried testing any of these setups in Catus? With "Challenge Mode Restrictions" enabled and "Downlscaled to 463"? (Note: you'll need to reforge after doing this and it won't match in-game)

When I do Challenge Modes, trinket-wise I use 2 of: Bottle, Xuen, and Flashing Steel.

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:18 pm

raffy wrote:
Sha-Touched Gems do not work

Ah, I didn't know this.

Curious, have you tried testing any of these setups in Catus? With "Challenge Mode Restrictions" enabled and "Downlscaled to 463"? (Note: you'll need to reforge after doing this and it won't match in-game)

When I do Challenge Modes, trinket-wise I use 2 of: Bottle, Xuen, and Flashing Steel.


I... I didn't know catus could do this and after using Wowhead's item comparison tool for hours and hours this last week I feel retarded. I'm going to take the 5-6 best item builds I had in excel and push em into Catus when I get home from work and see what pops up. The big issue with Catus for challenge mode simming though is as most of the instance is mass AoE mobs I'm not sure its set up to sim that properly. I'll go around giving some of the menus I never use in Catus a check though and see whats new. (by the way love that we can "fight" item builds now it convinced me to use my Normal mode AoC over Heroic Rentaki. It was like a 400 dps loss (lol) but the extra Stampeeding Roars/barkskins/survival instincts totally makes up for it. Plus a big benifit to AoC is now that FoN is pushed into our rotation I started to feel a bit Energy starved AoC helps fix that by giving me more energy than I would have normally which is honestly my favorite thing about the trinket.

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby raffy » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:32 pm

Maybe try the Cleave encounter, with periodic adds:
Image
If you use HotW (and Hotwcane and/or Wrath) it will be used during this encounter type if you enable it.

Remember, make sure to setup your buffs/debuffs appropriately. Always bleeding and Always Weakened are unrealistic.

If I had the Assembly Line encounter working, it would probably be a much better proxy for Challenge Mode mechanics. Especially if you used Periodic Idle time to simulate travel time between trash.

If you turn a lot of single-use stuff off (Heroism, Potion, etc..), spawn 4+ adds [x] At Start, and used Fixed Time: 30sec, you could compare Thrash/Swipe w/Berserk to Hotwcane.

Additionally, you could go back to Patchwerk, set the encounter time to something realistic, and then check if Wrath spam is viable.

You can also confirm the value of swapping your spell power weapon, even though it practice, it feels shitty waiting that extra GCD.

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby aggixx » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:40 pm

I highly doubt the Consort bracers are BiS, they waste far too much of the stat budget on mastery. I recall in 5.2 that the Horridon bracers were slightly better than them (without Rune) so a two stat item that actually has mastery on it would beat it handily.
Image

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:12 pm

Consort bracers are the only socketed bracers that I know of. I might have missed one. That non down-scaling agility socket bonus is why I accounted them as likely BIS.

Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Molov » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:00 pm

Hi, i have one question about trinkets. I was building my own BiS since i can't get all of those loots listed (Ra Den, and my guild just killed malkorok last week) and i noticed your trinket choices, why Renataki and Shado Pan trinkets? Is it for the hit/exp cap? Wouldn't it be better to just go straight agility and mastery, because for trinkets i was aiming for Xuen/Bottle/Juju, but maybe going for hit/exp cap is better since there is a lot of AoE, so direct damage.

If anyone is interested, i've got this options instead of the rare weapon (never seen it since the release of the raid) and for the SoO items that we don't have in LFR/Flex yet:

Ring: Pulled Grenade Pin - Mastery/Crit - Gate of the Setting Sun (heroic), 1st boss.
Ring2: Seal of the Shado-Pan Assault - Mastery/Crit - Vendor (Shado-Pan Assault, friendly).
Legs: Worldbinder Legging - Mastery/Crit - Yellow & blue sockets bonus 120 Agility - Dark Animus.
Weapon: Jalak's Maelstrom Staff - Mastery/Hit - Blue socket bonus 60 agility (+ legendary socket) - Horridon

What do you guys think? Anything better from bosses before Nazgrim or Malkorok?

PS: Sorry for my english, it's my 3rd language :<

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:10 pm

in general you want hit and exp to come from the base stats on piece of gear from challenge modes and not from reforges. I also don't want to waste gems on hit/exp if possible. Rentaki allows you to snap shot a very high agility bleed (either thrash or rip or just rake) this trinket will infact allow you to snap shot the highest possible bleed in Challenge modes of all trinkets. On top of snapshotting high bleeds it has a really good proc rate making it ideal. Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault was me trying to find a reliable ICD trinket that also gave a ton of hit rating. It procs for ~5000 agility every 115 seconds making it a really strong trinket. If Hit rating isn't a concern because of your other gear I'd recommend Bad Juju (.7 PPM), Discipline of Xuen, or Relic of Xuen.

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:25 am

Alright after a few beers and lots of simming the only change from the top list I found was that the crafted leather pants from this tier are surprisingly good. Though they are one socket less than the legs from Ra-Den they do have a+agility socket bonus which is simming higher than the Ra-Den pant + Mastery. Also both of these sockets are red sockets meaning more delicate Primordial rubies.

The Worth noting the Ra-Den boots are basically identical sim wise with the Quillen Hide boots, incase you want BIS without having to craft the boots.

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:59 am

Tremnen wrote:Consort bracers are the only socketed bracers that I know of. I might have missed one. That non down-scaling agility socket bonus is why I accounted them as likely BIS.

Fair enough, didn't consider that. I assume you simmed that then?
Image

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:48 am

Yes, but when I did my sims I only accounted for the buffs my personal group has which is 1 blood lust. mastery buff, crit buff, spell power buff or Spell Haste, and stat buff, and one storm totem.

General rule of thumb for challenge mode gear is that since socket bonuses do not get reduced stats More Sockets > Less sockets.

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby aggixx » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:18 pm

Cogwheels aren't scaled down which makes Agile Retinal Armor BiS by a longshot.
Image

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:33 pm

I'm not an engineer so I completely forgot this thing existed! If you have engineering this is easily the go to helmet! Engineering is also great in CMs for other reasons as well. If you take engineering you don't need invis potions usually and thus can use dps pots more frequently shortening your time. Super serious world best time challenge mode players will always take engineering.

Posts: 5
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Nerto » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:53 pm

Maybe a silly question does it matter if the item is from lfr,normal or heroic or have all items same value per itemlevel?

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby raffy » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:13 pm

In 5.3, Blizzard changed item scaling such that difference versions of the same item, when scaled to the same item level, are identical. This is what caused a lot of Catus reforging bugs when that patch was released, because the change was made silently.

You can check this in Catus, by equipping two weapons (one in Equip and one in Swap, of different difficulties) and scaling them to the same item level. Note: you can easily change the item version/difficulty, by clicking on the green textual description of the item. You could also do a gear compare between different profiles (to test other gear) to avoid the Unique restrictions. You could import your cat, change all of the item versions to something different, and then scale them back so they match your gear, and then do "Compare: Armory."

However, the balance of Hit/Exp (which gets preserved in Challenge Mode scaling) can make it so different versions of the same item are better/worse because they suck up more/less of the Hit/Exp budget when unscaled.

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby aggixx » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:17 am

raffy wrote:However, the balance of Hit/Exp (which gets preserved in Challenge Mode scaling) can make it so different versions of the same item are better/worse because they suck up more/less of the Hit/Exp budget when unscaled.

This.

So the short answer is: If it has hit or exp on it, lower item level is (usually) better. If not it doesn't matter.
Image

Revered
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:46 am

Nerto wrote:Maybe a silly question does it matter if the item is from lfr,normal or heroic or have all items same value per itemlevel?



for most people its safe to say that there isnt a noticable difference between the LFR version and the heroic thunderforged version of a single item in challenge modes. Technically this is incorrect (and in some gearing situations the LFR piece is better than the Heroic Thunderforged one which seems very counter intuitive and here is why)

These numbers are made up so do not source this as exact numbers***

The way they down scale your gear in challenge modes is by restricting your stat budget. For this example we will say the stat budget is 10,000. on your gear (out side of challenge modes) you have 2100 Hit, 2100 Expertise and the rest normal stats. Since Hit and Expertise do not get lowered you only have 5800 stat room to meet your budget and your current gear is dropped down to meet that requirement preserving the ratios of your previous gear.

now say you have 2100 hit and 3400 expertise (because you have a heroic thunderforged Shan-Dun from Lei Shen). Suddenly your stat budget isn't looking so good for your other stats because you are using 5500 stat points on just hit/exp. This leaves you with only 4500 stat points to spread around your other secondaries you would be better off with the LFR Shan-Dun (which has lower Expertise rating) because it would put you closer to your desired Exp Cap. Basically the golden rule here is this Don't go over your hit/exp caps (whether you choose 92 or 93) in challenge modes because you are "stealing" stats from your other secondaries.

Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Vorticose » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:23 am

raffy wrote:You can also confirm the value of swapping your spell power weapon, even though it practice, it feels shitty waiting that extra GCD.


Last time I weapon-swapped in Challenge Modes, it took away heaps of my health (I think because it rescales the gear). It happened on both the switch and the switch-back which made it much worse imo. Even when I was using HOTW to Wrath spam or Tranq I stopped weapon-swapping because I thought it was too risky and a waste of healer mana/time.

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 1657
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Proving Grounds / Challenge Mode BIS

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:35 pm

This is by design. They wanted to discourage gear swaps and so if you swap anything out you lose 50% of your life.

Return to Kitty DPS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Meaningless, ShmooDude and 9 guests