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Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/etc.)

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Ayleena » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:30 pm

Yes, that is a very good point. The Agi boost should trump all regardless of secondary stats, and this time we wont have secondary stats that are useless after a certain amount, which is why they created reforging in the first place. IIRC ferals were even reaching crit ceilings by the end of ICC.

This is of course assuming that Primary stats will still be x times better than our secondaries. In the time before reforging, in WotlK, this was not the case.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:49 pm

LK was an outlier and something they learned from. If you recall several new things happened in LK raiding:
1. 10 man raiding was introduced to by side by side with 25 instead of a one off model.
2. Heroic difficulty was introduced in Uldaur.
3. An extra tier was added for the first time ever (stupid ToGC).

All of these combined added an extra 5 tier's worth of gearing they not planned for when laying out scaling for the expansion. As a result Ferals hit both the ArP cap and the Crit cap. We weren't the only ones hitting caps either. Since then we have only had 3 tiers each expac and have had secondary stat scaling reduced which prevented most everyone from hitting caps. Bears did hit armor cap in early SoO gear, so the cap got raised.

The biggest reason reforging came to be is because of hit and expertise. Attempting to balance pieces in LK could be a real pain in the ass. It made people horde gear because they would have to swap pieces in and out to keep from wasting lots of stats. As a secondary benefit it could make consolation pieces workable. The issue became that the problem was solved for Hit/Exp, but it didn't change the gearing complexity like they had hoped. Instead of people having "that extra piece of gear with lots or little hit" they would have to go to external tools to try and min max.

I will be sorry to see reforging go. I have a small hope in my head that they will let it stick around. The idea is if they don't have caps or breakpoints for anything you could just reforge a less desirable stat into a better one. It wouldn't require the very complex algorithms that have been required (thank you again Edgy) to hit 2 caps and maximize what is left over. It could be as simple as "Mastery is better so now I can get more". I don't have a specific reason to believe it will stay, I would just be sorry to see it go.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby raffy » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:37 pm

ShmooDude wrote:390k w/ 15k mastery, 5k haste 11k crit
381k w/ 7k mastery, 14k haste, 11k crit
380k w/ 6k mastery, 9k haste, 17k crit

While diverse for MoP gear, this isn't extreme enough. WoD will have 6? secondaries (Crit, Haste, Mastery, Multistrike, Amplify, Readiness) and already it's easy to imagine a complex interaction between Amplify and the other stats -- Amplify with a dominate secondary (Crit for Guardian, Haste for Tankadin, etc) might cause problems. Readiness will suffer from "breakpoints" (you'll want your abilities to be a multiple of your proc ICD's.) Tier gear will be locked into whatever stats the developers decide. 2p+2p (using the best 2 of each set) will probably be very strong. The remaining slots should have a lot of selection available: Binomial[6,2] = 15, so maybe 50% chance (7.5/15) that a slot has exactly the stats you want. Readiness will probably suck due to alignment (and provide zero value when cooldowns need to be aligned to fight mechanics) and I suspect it will be the new "Hit/Exp" that needs to be maintained.

Related: I wonder if there will be new group buffs for any of the new secondaries? (since you can expect solid coverage in 20 man)

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:58 pm

I can't help but think we are way to early about applying new mechanics to old designs. They have stated a bunch of time so far that they want to take away the on pull trinkets/cooldown line up. With snapshotting going away and our re jiggering still pending it is likely to far off to start guessing about how much different the new tertiary stats are going to effect things. I actually wouldn't be surprised if we start to see our cooldowns become more mutually exclusive or trinket procs have less interaction with them.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:23 pm

IMO, all the focus on reforging is misplaced, especially with the removal of hit/expertise. Reforging simply provides a slight dps boost to those who spend time away from the game either doing research/writing tools and/or reading/using the tools from the researchers/tool builders. We played the game for a very long time without reforging, and there is nothing about reforging that makes the game more enjoyable/fulfilling.

As Shmoo pointed out, the dps difference from having reforging is relatively small. Certainly significantly smaller than understanding the mechanics of any given fight and determining how to optimize dps for each phase/situation.

I am in favor of any changes that shift the focus back to playing and studying the fights and minimizes the amount of time spent trying to squeeze every iota of dps by studying gear mechanics. Call me old fashioned, but my all-time favorite fights were from BC when our tools were pretty primitive. Besides, there was plenty to do before we had reforging on the gear optimization front (anyone who played feral in Vanilla can attest to that - omg what a pain it was to gear up).

For the old-timers out there, here is a screenshot of bear gear from Vanilla:
WoWScrnShot_122606_223435.jpg
Vanilla Feral Bear Armor
WoWScrnShot_122606_223435.jpg (237.48 KiB) Viewed 1248 times

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby aggixx » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:47 pm

ShmooDude wrote:I think people are faaar too obsessed with getting their BiS item. Unless your secondaries are just massively out of whack (ours are not, I don't really have much experience with other classes).

Couldn't agree more. I keep hearing people saying "but what if the gear is all garbage for us one tier!!!!", as it turns out: A) that probably won't happen and B) even if it does, that's one thing that plays into a long list of factors that determine class balance.

It's like people don't understand what it means for our worst stat to be worth 60% (arbitrary number) of our best stat. Hint: it doesn't mean if all of the gear has haste on it that we do 60% of the DPS that we "should be doing". A gap like that in stat value is completely reasonable. Could it be a little better? Sure it could, like in DS where all 5 stats had a simulated value that were roughly identical, but that doesn't mean it's necessary by any means. And some specs have it far, far worse than us (you know, where it could actually cause a scaling issue, *gasp*).
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby aggixx » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:59 pm

raffy wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:390k w/ 15k mastery, 5k haste 11k crit
381k w/ 7k mastery, 14k haste, 11k crit
380k w/ 6k mastery, 9k haste, 17k crit

While diverse for MoP gear, this isn't extreme enough. WoD will have 6? secondaries (Crit, Haste, Mastery, Multistrike, Amplify, Readiness) and already it's easy to imagine a complex interaction between Amplify and the other stats -- Amplify with a dominate secondary (Crit for Guardian, Haste for Tankadin, etc) might cause problems. Readiness will suffer from "breakpoints" (you'll want your abilities to be a multiple of your proc ICD's.) Tier gear will be locked into whatever stats the developers decide. 2p+2p (using the best 2 of each set) will probably be very strong. The remaining slots should have a lot of selection available: Binomial[6,2] = 15, so maybe 50% chance (7.5/15) that a slot has exactly the stats you want. Readiness will probably suck due to alignment (and provide zero value when cooldowns need to be aligned to fight mechanics) and I suspect it will be the new "Hit/Exp" that needs to be maintained.

This is really the only thing I'm remotely concerned about.

Readiness will indeed have some serious issues; some classes will definitely want to stack it up to "breakpoints" where certain interactions happen, but it's value will swing wildly from situation to situation which may make it a less than desirable stat for most...

Amplify sounds terrifying from a character optimization standpoint. I know Elemental Shamans have struggled with this issue for quite a few tiers now where you have two stats constantly struggling for superiority over each other as your change your stat balance around and finding the optimal balance can be a nightmare. Amplify has the potential to bring this to every spec, especially depending on what exactly it scales (anyone know if it scales Multistrike and Readiness rating?).

In terms of class mechanics though, everything is so undetermined right it's almost pointless to complain about anything. We won't have the faintest idea what is or isn't a good idea until we can get our hands on beta testing.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:07 pm

From twitter: "No, that is not gone. TF applies to the whole DoT applied during it."

In reference to bleeds and TF, so sounds like only stat (haste, crit, mastery and multistrike) don't snapshot, everything else (damage modifiers from tf/sr) still will.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:05 am

They had announced that prior to this tweet.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby teddabear » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:01 pm

My biggest concern is Blizzard's tendency to work on Feral last. With all the changes that will be needed for WoD if they save Feral for last again I doubt it will turn out well.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:20 pm

In MoP they had to focus on getting Guardian ready along side all of the other tanks. That was the biggest reason we got pushed to the back burner till the last minute. This time around should be different (fingers crossed).

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby teddabear » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:31 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:In MoP they had to focus on getting Guardian ready along side all of the other tanks. That was the biggest reason we got pushed to the back burner till the last minute. This time around should be different (fingers crossed).


Watched your Final Boss interview. Good Stuff.

It reminded me of one more thing I'd like Blizzard to fix, buff the agility to spellpower conversion so we don't need a spellpower weapon for Tranq. Also get rid of the channelling, I'm getting tired of standing in Bad Stuff because my Tranq isn't done yet. The most aggravating was Heroic Sha. Tranq felt like it was responsible for 90% of my pride.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:13 am

Thanks.

Don't go assuming that HotW or even Tranq as a Feral spell is going to stay the way it is today. However I agree. I would like very much to see weapon swapping go away as a work around for Tranq. The channel time I think should stay just as a balance. I would like to see however that we don't shift out of form when healing stuff while HotW is active.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Sibylle » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:30 pm

teddabear wrote:Watched your Final Boss interview. Good Stuff.

Waaah, I totally missed that. *goes to watch* (whilst levelling my baby hunter, which feels almost blasphemous)
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Sibylle » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:00 pm

Done now, loved it, especially the part about our "priority rotation" hehe. Stenhaldi, if you read this, the bit about planning was the best explanation of exactly what makes up the challenge in playing feral I've heard so far. And Tinder, loved the part about new ferals taking the "top dps" talents without mastering the basics of the spec first (not that I did that in early Mists, or anything *cough*).

That was one WoW-related show I enjoyed every minute of :)
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Kroníc » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:12 am

I, too, loved the video. I loved the part when Tinder's kitty was on the sofa and looked like it was on your shoulder xD

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:09 pm

As I could see her behind me on the camera I was just hoping she wasn't going to make me laugh. It helped that I was staring at the chat most of the time. Didn't stop me from seeing when she turned the stream away from family friendly for a minute or so though.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Steakbomb » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:13 pm

She is a rank 1 feral kitty
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Whitepaw » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:54 am

Sibylle wrote:
teddabear wrote:Watched your Final Boss interview. Good Stuff.

Waaah, I totally missed that. *goes to watch* (whilst levelling my baby hunter, which feels almost blasphemous)


Is this interview available somewhere?

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Paloro » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:49 am

Whitepaw wrote:Is this interview available somewhere?


Episode 20 on Final Boss TV
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Whitepaw » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:29 am

And they have podcasts on iTunes and a Youtube channel!

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Elamari » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:58 pm

I am having trouble downloading eps of Final Boss from itunes to my phone with the podcast app. I getting download error, tap to try again. (Great show Tinder btw)

I have deleted and re-subbed to the feed. I then deleted the app entirely, downloaded, installed then re-subbed and still having the same issue. I am unable to download it when connected to wifi and also unable to steam it with mobile data.
At one point I was able to stream it with mobile data but was unable to skip by either moving the cursor along the time tracker or using the 15 sec skip forward /backward buttons. During this same session, the podcast would be begin from the start after returning from being paused.

Anyone else having this problem? I've found it happens time to time with some feeds (sheep moon is one). The feed owner's say its fine on their end. I find it odd and frustrating as I listen to so many other podcasts and have virtually no problems :|

Cheers.
Cricket? Nobody understands cricket. You have to know what a crumpet is to understand cricket.

File under Feral - http://fileunderferal.wordpress.com/

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Whitepaw » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:46 am

@Elamari:

Have you setup Podcast app with a limit to how much memory it can use? If you have, there could be a problem downloading new stuff.

Could you state iPhone model and iOS number?

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Elamari » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:11 pm

It's an iphone 4 and currently have 6.1.3 (10B329). I need to update to ios 7.0.4. As far as I am aware, I have not set any limits for the app.

Just seems odd it happens with Final Boss tv and only 1 other podcast. I have not problems with any of my other podcasts;

Convert to raid
The Instance
Legendary
WoW Insider
Realm Maintenance
Starcast
The Training Dummies
Tauren Think Tank
Team Waffle Cast
Spare Parts
Card talk
Daily mtg podcast
mtg drive to work
Cricket? Nobody understands cricket. You have to know what a crumpet is to understand cricket.

File under Feral - http://fileunderferal.wordpress.com/

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Whitepaw » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:52 am

Seems odd idd. Final Boss also have a youtube channel.

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