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Feral 4pc Opener

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Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Steakbomb » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:01 pm

So I asked this to Tinder/Sten during the FinalBoss show but it may have been too much info in a short amount of words so I wanted to clarify the question a bit more.

So this is assuming you have Pot, Lust, Rune, AoC/Harrom's/TED, TF, Berserk, etc up.

Currently my opener is similar to this:

Heal/SR/Prepot
Shattering Throw
Faerie Fire
Rake/Shred to 5CP's
Savage Roar
Get 3 CP's back from 4pc
Rake/Shred
DoC HT
DoC Rake(if not at 5CP)
DoC Rip


The other option would be:

Heal/SR/Prepot
Shattering Throw
Faerie Fire
Rake/Shred to 5CP's
Rip
Get 3 CP's back from 4pc
Rake/Shred
DoC HT
DoC Rake(if not at 5CP)
DoC Rip

Now this is assuming you are able to do all of this within 1 Rune uptime which 95% of the time I don't have any issue with but I have seen people talking about other openers so I just wanted some input from others.

Also since this wasn't really answered that much on the show:

If you are horde: Troll vs Tauren

Troll was a massive boost back in ToT because of all the Beast classified bosses and that 5% was awesome. Berserking is always a nice addition.

But with SoO now and only 1 Beast boss, is it really worth it to stay Troll? I ran sims in Catus and it's only like 3-4k difference in DPS to be troll over a 7.5 min fight.
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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Kraineth » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:50 pm

My opener is generally

Heal/sr/prepot
stealth
TF
SR for 3 cps
Ravage for guaranteed crit since my base crit is >50%
Rip(will have boost from DoC+tf still)
Healing touch for DoC proc
Rake

it's a 100% consistent opener, not having to account for lucky crits to get 5cps or anything like that, and also avoids having to cast 2 Rip's in order to get one with DoC up.

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Grondmaster » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:49 am

Steakbomb wrote:So I asked this to Tinder/Sten during the FinalBoss show but it may have been too much info in a short amount of words so I wanted to clarify the question a bit more.



Is this episode recorded lately? Since I cant find it on youtube?

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Steakbomb » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:52 am

Yes it was yesterday. Was supposed to be about Boomkins or something but 1 of the guests couldn't make it so they made it a feral show and had Tinderhoof and Stenhaldi on.
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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby inferiorlol » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:03 am

I am not a native speaker so sorry if the text below is a bit confusing.

I have a feeling that people are too afraid to overwrite a Rip with a slightly weaker one even if their "absolute power" is really large. I define "absolute power" in the same sense as the multipliers shown in Catus. An example might be that you have 10 seconds left of your fully buffed Rip and you are right now fully buffed minus TF. If you look at your bleed ratios now it will say 85 or something in red text and you don't want to overwrite it. However, even though you don't have TF active you are still exceptionally strong. In my mind it makes totally sense to overwrite the Rip since you will replace a marginally stronger Rip with a longer one. For the next 10 seconds your Rip will be a bit weaker but after that it is probably a lot stronger than the one you would put up right there.

In my mind in order to play a feral druid really well you can't completely rely on relative power of yourself vs your current bleeds but you also need to take into account your absolute power.

Something interesting (but not related to openers) would be to plot the strength distribution of a player for a fight, that is how much time is spent at different power multipliers. And then maybe in the action script you could sort of make a logical decision that if absolute strength = P, then overwrite a bleed that is stronger by a factor of r only if it has a time t or less remaining where t is a function t(P, r). I guess you could make it into a one parameter function by having the function be something like alfa * P/r where alfa would need to be found by simulations.

Anyway, why am I talking about this in the opener thread. Well the reason is that I feel many people are just focused on their first Rip. This however can be put up very fast and you still have a lot of time left on your trinkets. I mean the "advanced openers" put up their DoC rip as their second GCD. I usually replace the first Rip with a new one just about when the trinkets are about to run off. Yes, this mean that the last Rip will not be TF buffed but you gain maybe 7-8 seconds of strong rip time. I understand this does not hold true if you have TED but with the rest of the trinkets you are not significantly weaker 10 seconds after the opener.

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Kraineth » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:56 pm

Maybe you're speaking about newer ferals, but I can assure you that us older ones, and the ones involved in higher end content fully understand why you would want to overwrite as stronger bleed a bit early to take advantage of a proc before it falls off.

But this idea totally revolves around the end of a Rip, I think 10 seconds is a bit too long to place a new Rip that is only 85% of the current one, especially if the trinket won't fall off for another 5 seconds, you should definitely wait to see if you get a double trinket proc.

The advanced opener is used for a reason, casting 2 Rips is a waste of energy and combo points. Two very valuable resources.

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:13 am

If you are under Berserk in the opening you have more energy than you can spend so it's not a waste. The only other thing you would do with the energy is FB, and a 30% bigger Rip from a DoC proc will make that up in just a tick or 2.

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby inferiorlol » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:21 am

Kraineth wrote:Maybe you're speaking about newer ferals, but I can assure you that us older ones, and the ones involved in higher end content fully understand why you would want to overwrite as stronger bleed a bit early to take advantage of a proc before it falls off.

But this idea totally revolves around the end of a Rip, I think 10 seconds is a bit too long to place a new Rip that is only 85% of the current one, especially if the trinket won't fall off for another 5 seconds, you should definitely wait to see if you get a double trinket proc.

The advanced opener is used for a reason, casting 2 Rips is a waste of energy and combo points. Two very valuable resources.


Maybe you don't know but the advanced opener is used because of the how TED diminishes in strength over time. If you don't have TED then the advance opener is a dps loss. And I already said that you shouldn't overwrite the rip if you had TED. Now, what you "think" is not really relevant. Neither what I think. That's why I said that you need simulations to look for the exact breakpoints of when clipping stronger bleeds is sensible.

Also, if everthing to feral was not "wasting energy and combo points" then it would be pretty trivial to play right. Every time we clip a bleed we "waste" a CP according to your definition. If "wasting" CP gives higher dps then it isn't really wasting is it.

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:58 am

inferiorlol wrote:Now, what you "think" is not really relevant. Neither what I think. That's why I said that you need simulations to look for the exact breakpoints of when clipping stronger bleeds is sensible.

While I have no opinion on the topic of openers, I wish to respond to this particular passage because I would caution against placing too much faith in some interpretation of a simulation result. The simulation is only as good as its action list. If you want to convert a simulation result into a factual claim, then make sure you understand -- and appropriately convey to your audience -- exactly what the simulation is doing. Otherwise, do not treat such a result as anything more than a suggestion.

Due to its complexity, almost all simulation work for this spec is more suggestion than fact. It's still useful, but it should not be blindly trusted.

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Cluey » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:39 pm

This seems to be the most appropriate thread for this question, as you can guess from the time delay I don't check forums very often. It must be the old man in me.

I like Kraineth's plan, I hadn't thought of doing that but it does seem to be a waste of our finite energy resource.

What I'm interested in is how you guys deal with Heroism/Bloodlust right at the start of the fight?
If I use Berserk during this time I cannot stop my energy from capping, at the same time if I delay berserk to the second TF then I'm not really taking advantage of my AoC trinket.
So do you guys just live with the wasted energy or have a plan I haven't come up with for spending it?

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Cetlysm » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:44 pm

You need to berserk anyways even with bloodlust/hero, you want to keep berserk and the proc always synchronized.
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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Cluey » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:42 pm

Cetlysm wrote:You need to berserk anyways even with bloodlust/hero, you want to keep berserk and the proc always synchronized.

"the proc" isn't very useful.
Which proc are you referring to?

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Cetlysm » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:36 pm

AoC's proc
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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby aggixx » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:28 am

With a 580 Assurance of Consequence the ICD on the trinket becomes just a tad shorter than the cooldown on your Berserk, which allows you to more or less keep them synchronized the whole fight.

But yeah you pretty much just deal with it. You shouldn't really be wasting much/any energy unless you get many or consecutive Omen of Clarity procs.
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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby Cluey » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:55 am

aggixx wrote:With a 580 Assurance of Consequence the ICD on the trinket becomes just a tad shorter than the cooldown on your Berserk, which allows you to more or less keep them synchronized the whole fight.

But yeah you pretty much just deal with it. You shouldn't really be wasting much/any energy unless you get many or consecutive Omen of Clarity procs.

Currently I only have a 574 one, hopefully I'll get lucky one week so I can see.
I haven't got around to checking but trinket ICD used to be reset on equipping, have you tried that recently? Is it still that way?

When I use Berserk during Heroism I cap energy a lot, maybe my Australian latency is hurting me here.
Also since I got back to more serious raiding I've joined a 25 man group, wow does that hurt the frame rate!

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby RareBeast » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:57 pm

Cluey wrote:When I use Berserk during Heroism I cap energy a lot, maybe my Australian latency is hurting me here.
Also since I got back to more serious raiding I've joined a 25 man group, wow does that hurt the frame rate!


Aussie here as well with similar fun latency issues (yay 3g wireless internet :roll: ). I have a reasonably beefy pc and even with all my settings down low, a 40man Ordos raid takes me down to ~10 fps and lags out massively. Seems to be significantly worse now than when timeless isle first came out and I started killing Ordos. Not sure why.

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Re: Feral 4pc Opener

Postby aggixx » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:48 am

One trick, although I don't particularly like to mess with it, is you can use TF then one filler, and then use Berserk. That way you have 30 more energy or so worth of breathing room to work with.
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