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At wit's end... again.

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At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:44 pm

Hello again fellow ferals.

I posted half a year ago seeking help on a number of DPS issues, and thanks to some really wonderful folks and their advice, I managed to pick it up. That was the last tier

Now, my guild has been on Garrosh Heroic 25 (for... quite a while). And I've been scrapping the bottom of the meters. We're working on pushing the boss past stuff like 2nd Empowered Whirlings and whatnot, and that's not possible sometimes because DPS lacks. Plainly put, I'm being carried. And I don't want to be. It's come to the point I want to be sat out but can't be because of utility issues.

Our best attempt on Garrosh: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-143jx ... 968&e=9580
Armory

Notes:
1) I am using HotW for this.
2) Am currently using Ovale + Nef
3) Also have a Heroic AoC (2/2) in the bank if it matters...

(Sorry about the double posting. Tried deleting the other topic but it's still being listed)

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearawolf » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:09 pm

Well I'm no expert, only a bear who dabbles in feral when I can.

The biggest issue I see if your rip uptimes (66%) and power (167k avg tick).

You should probably check out the weak auras used to track bleed strengths and ones to track your buffs and debuffs and get a couple to track your trinket procs. Theres some great resources on here that already do this, or I can send you mine which is an adapted version of steakbombs WA set.

I also find Ovale to be a detriment towards DPS, I much prefer to monitor my own buffs and such and think several steps ahead to make sure i can always get maximum strength bleeds up should a trinket(s) proc.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:57 pm

Hi Bearawolf,

I'm using NeedtoKnow (can't seem to figure out how to get WA set up and customised) and track (in addition to our buffs and debuffs) both trinket procs, weapon procs and cloak procs. Is there anything else I should be tracking?

To be honest I've tried to use Ovale as a 'teaching' tool while monitoring my buffs since I can't seem to think of and remember our bleed snapshots. Worked for the last tier when I had things actually figured out but in this tier? I'm quite lost, hence the dependency on it; sometimes now I don't understand why it suggests some moves (i.e Rake/ Mangle instead of Shred while RoO is proccing). Should I get rid of Ovale altogether?

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Kraineth » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:28 pm

I personally don't recommend any move suggesters for feral, as far as it suggesting rake over shred, given enough mastery/AP rake does more direct damage than mangle/shred.

I'm not sure if NTK or Ovale tracks bleed strengths, but tracking that is pretty much the most important part of feral, you need to be able to tell if it is actually worth overwriting your bleeds.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearawolf » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:13 pm

Shred is pretty horrible to use during a RoRo proc, you should rake if you really need CPs. If you download Weak Auras 2 I or someone can give you practically ready made strings that do everything you need.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:33 pm

Good grief. Remind me not to post within 10 minutes of waking up.

I meant I didn't understand by Ovale was suggesting Mangle or Shred over Rake when RoO was procced. Fundamentally, I seem to be lacking even basic understanding of procs and how to fully utilise them :/

NTK doesn't seem to track the strengths of the bleeds. Could anyone screenshot their bleeds addons tracking the varying strengths in-combat? I'd love to see how the different addons (or different addon configurations) display it.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearawolf » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:48 pm

Image

Bleed strengths are in energy bar. (rake/rip/thrash)

I also have sounds for both trinkets and when TF is off CD.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:18 pm

Thank you so much, Bearawolf.

I've never used Weak Auras (or even PA) to any viable extent so please correct me if I'm off (had to consult a lock friend haha).

Rake | Rip | Thrash
100 | 109 |100

So Rake and Thrash are at their optimal for the moment, and Rip can be refreshed to snapshot better?

Thank you so much for sharing this information; I think I will indeed get WA2 when I get home. May I have the string for the bleed strength tracker (or a link to it)?

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:21 pm

The WeakAuras script I maintain (which is likely the one bearawolf is using) provides only the numbers indicating the ratio between the bleed you could cast and the bleed that is already up. It's up to you to figure out where to set them up on your UI (or you can ask someone to give you the string for their setup).

I put mine on top of the respective icons like this:
Spoiler: show
Image (they're the small numbers at the bottom of each icon)
but the icons are something I set up separately.

Anyway, while in principle it's not necessary to have an addon like this as long as you are tracking (and remembering) your procs, it's very convenient to have it. And it's certainly better than relying on a move suggester. I generally advise against using move suggesters at all, but if you use one, it should just be for advice only and not something to rely on.

Having a bleed strength tracker is also useful for developing an intuition for how strong each proc is. For example, can you say off-hand how much of a damage increase re-origination is? Vicious? Dancing steel? (For me they're about 100%, 40%, and 8% respectively.)

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearawolf » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:33 pm

Yea I'm using Sten's script, pretty powerful tool to use and definitely is a major factor in pumping out max DPS.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:45 pm

Thanks, bearawolf!!!

----
Appreciate the input a lot, Stenhaldi.

At first I used Ovale as a teaching device in ToT. Then with the new tier, I got lost with the new procs and trinkets. Gosh that'll teach me not to keep up with the postings. Time to ditch it and explore WA2. Nothing much to lose at this point.

Also, looking at your armory, you're gemming into Secondary stats. I read here that although optimal, the DPS gain is only abour 2k on Sims. Should I bother changing from Agi to Crit gemming?

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearawolf » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:00 pm

If you're looking at mine I'm crit for Bear spec...but more secondaries means a bigger rune proc. I would focus on bleed management first before changing gems.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:05 pm

True that, bearawolf! Same with DoC for now, I guess...

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Alpheus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:37 am

bearpelt wrote:Hello again fellow ferals.

I posted half a year ago seeking help on a number of DPS issues, and thanks to some really wonderful folks and their advice, I managed to pick it up. That was the last tier

Now, my guild has been on Garrosh Heroic 25 (for... quite a while). And I've been scrapping the bottom of the meters. We're working on pushing the boss past stuff like 2nd Empowered Whirlings and whatnot, and that's not possible sometimes because DPS lacks. Plainly put, I'm being carried. And I don't want to be. It's come to the point I want to be sat out but can't be because of utility issues.

Our best attempt on Garrosh: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-143jx ... 968&e=9580
Armory

Notes:
1) I am using HotW for this.
2) Am currently using Ovale + Nef
3) Also have a Heroic AoC (2/2) in the bank if it matters...

(Sorry about the double posting. Tried deleting the other topic but it's still being listed)


Since this is directly aimed at Garrosh HC, I'll share what I figured out so far (we killed him a couple weeks ago). You shouldn't gauge your dps based on the overall meters. Phase 1 is mostly about how fast you can burn garrosh down (ie. how many stars + add spawns) so if you're benchmarking yourself on Pre-Phase4 wipes you should only look at Garrosh's Damage taken. We're doing adds from passive aoe only (and those who are very strong or have single-target benefits from AoEing) to like 50% then we knock them into a passing star which should kill most of them.

A very useful mechanic on Garrosh is that he will be in execute range 4 times during the encounter. If you have strong bleeds going you should try to refresh them with BitW as much as possible. This is most important P1->P2 and P2->P3 when you do not have time to re-apply them (ie. time spent re-booting your cycle is lost dps). It's not so important during P3->P4 since you reboot anyway (effective damage is dealt only while you're waiting for the cinematic stun to wear off).

Also, if possible try to run DoC, I've had a lot higher sustained parses with it on most tries (again, it's important to filter Garrosh-only). Keep TF and some spare energy available when going into the first transition and burn berserk on cooldown whenever you're on the boss. Don't delay them for any planned burn phases since most of your DPS comes from trinket procs and not from having Berserk up.

Other than that, try to avoid Rune-thrashing MC'd people unless you really lack aoe. They'll most likely die from it during Empowered Whirling Corruption :)

---

I ran the follow expression for your last wipe and I'll see if I can tell you more about what's going on. Your average rips and rakes are definitely way too low. Someone with your ilvl (not to mention Rune) should see average past 200k on both.

Code: Select all
sourceName = "Rexzis"
AND (spell in ("Vicious", "Re-Origination", "Dream of Cenarius")
OR spell in ("Rake", "Rip", "Mangle", "Shred", "Shred!", "Savage Roar") AND fulltype = SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS)


http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-143jx ... SUCCESS%29
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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Alpheus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:07 am

Extended the expression a little:

Code: Select all
sourceName = "Rexzis"
AND (spell in ("Vicious", "Re-Origination", "Dream of Cenarius", "Berserk")
OR spell in ("Ferocious Bite", "Ravage", "Rake", "Rip", "Mangle", "Shred", "Shred!", "Savage Roar") AND fulltype = SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS)


http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-143jx ... SUCCESS%29

It seems to me you're burning through your combo points and energy way too aggressively. You are using Ferocious Bite on a regular basis outside of Berserk thus incurring a high opportunity cost on your procs. You only get a finite amount of energy per fight (based on fight duration and average haste) and a finite amount of combo points (based on total energy accumulated minus the amount from Thrashes). Using so many on Bites leaves you with very low CP-spending on Savage Roar (your average duration per cast is 23seconds, which is 2-3CPs mostly) which in turn energy-starves you.

My advice would be to try to calm down a bit especially after your Berserk runs out after the pull (make a mental note on this) and allow your energy to pool to up to about 80, use a thrash if it's <3 sec or not up at all and let it go to 80 again. Only then use finishers (Rip, FB, Roar) and keep this up till your next berserk (where you can go nuts). This will also allow you to "catch" more proc opportunities by refreshing rip on time thus alleviating your issue with low damage on Rip/Rake.
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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:01 pm

Wow Alpheus... O_O Wow!!! Thank you so much for this in-depth analysis and encounter-specific advice!

Yep I'm only benchmarking myself using Damage Done to Garrosh Hellscream. Too many people in my raid like to pad on adds lol. Will keep in mind the BitW tip (grrr I always forget BitW there).

I intend to get into DoC when I've gotten used to using WA's bleed strength (Stenhaldi's excellent script :D). Feels like I'm learning feral all over again because--shamefully--I was dependent on Ovale (yeah I know, stupid at this level :/).

At the moment I am using Berserk at the start of the fight, right after first post-Jade Temple MC and the transition into P3 (sometimes I use it after before then to push the boss to P3, depending how much DPS we've got).

Up to P3, I'm usually only Swiping at MCs off Garrosh. In P3, tab-switching and interrupting MCs but still only Swiping (RL and some top DPSers would kill me if Weakened Blows was applied lol).

I... have no idea how to read the expressions (this is a new feature to me! o.O) but you're pretty spot on. I get so anxious when with spare CP and energy pooling. I used to think FB was to be used whenever all other buffs were up, but now I see the wisdom in saving the resources for refreshing the more important thing (execution will... take a bit of training).

I got rid of Ovale and switched to WA2 for bleed snapshot monitoring before heading into raid last night (only read your post after). Not exactly the best circumstance to be learning but quite possibly the fastest.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ilhdn ... /?target=3

Our tries last night were pretty awful, and the earlier attempts had me still confused (got used to it around pull #5 onwards). Seems my DPS on Garrosh has improved, but the uptime for Rip is still awful. Don't think I'm fully utilising the 4pc bonus :/

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Tremnen » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:59 pm

weakened blows and other debuffs do not stay on MC targets any more. stuns and other CCs do as well as damage over time effects.. we wiped do to a mage spreading his combustion on accident during MCs...

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Ekthelion » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:43 am

I believe this is your (OP) char: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmourne/Rexzis/advanced.
Assuming it's your char, you should do way more dps with it, even without padding the meters on the adds (I was usually behind mages, destro locks, retri during that phase - obv sick aoe) but then everything should come back to normal. As a feral you should top dps on the boss the whole time, especially considering your quite nice gear. If I was you I would simply forget about Ferrocious Bite (until ofc Berserk is on and/or Bloodlust or of course BitW phase) and give myself some nice WeakAura icon to tell me when the target is <25%.

You need to work on your bleed uptimes a bit and their proper applications. I see moments in your log where you apply the new Rip after 9 seconds from the previous one (without any significant buffs on). You also Mange a lot during Rune procs instead of Rake. During Berserk with/or Bloodlust you use Mangle instead of Shred. Playing with HotW should make some things easier with the 4pc (I find myself often reapplying SR far before it ends because using it after TF gives me PI proc for the Rip application in the following seconds; applying Rip would be a waste of dps since it would have been reapplied in few seconds). I believe every one of us needed a bit of practice to get used to 4pc and make it work with the talents.

About AoC: During our tries AoC was ready in the most crucial moments, especially just before pushing him into 3rd phase, allowing me to put usually the strongest Rip I can (Potion, Rune, AoC, TF, DoC). I was able to maintain this Rip until the beginning of the phase 4. You need to track the ICD of AoC though to know when to stop attacking the boss (for me it was usually just before the Whirling Corruption therefore I was running to the range camp, and after WC was over and Weapon was dropped I was comming back to the boss, usually proccing everything; with our dps we were able to go into BitW <25% phase before first MC so I was able to extend the Rip before getting Mind Controlled - which sometimes made my Rip drop if I got MC before BitW phase).

In short: dummy is your friend :)
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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:01 pm

Sorry about the lack of updates. Between the first post and tonight, we've been either farming or had nights of pretty awful tries.

Tonight our tries were finally consistent enough to show:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d ... 51&e=12438

Armoury: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/f ... s/advanced

There... seems to be improvement? I'm getting a feel of which buffs are the ones to take note of but am still not very clear on what to use on which procs. Don't know how everyone remember their bleed snapshots either!

Ekthelion: Yes, that is my character. Just saw your post so my apologies that my most recent logs don't reflect anything you mentioned :x Why is using Shred to dump energy during Berserk worse than using Mangle (I seem to energy cap too fast if Mangle is used)? I'm genuinely curious; when the reasoning is understood I tend to remember way better.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Ekthelion » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:34 pm

No, it's good to use Shred during energy capping, but I saw you using Mangles :)
edit: for bleed snapshoting I use Weak Auras provided by Stenhaldi: http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4446#p16467. They do the job (showing Rake, Rip and Thrash). Also Combo Points tracker by Agixx: http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=852#p8436 is a great improvement (subject of the topic is self-explanatory) :)
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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:00 pm

I've switched to Stenhaldi's WA :) Feels like I'm learning all over again haha. Still though. I saw some improvement last night ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d ... 51&e=12438 ), but it seems I'm still lacking on uptime (guess I'll take Displacer Beast to help).

I use Hear Kitty for cp tracking, though also have it on for ShadowedUI's target frame as a backup.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Neverpullout » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:11 pm

Morning Sir,
You've got a lot of good advice thusfar. Just thought I would add/expound on what I noticed from briefly looking at your logs/armory.

1) Your gear is damn good. Try to get your haste/crit closer to your mastery rating, with mastery just slightly higher obviously. You could gain a 400-600 during RoRo from doing this.

2) To expound on your question about why ovale was telling you to mangle/shred over using rake during RoRo. This is because although using rake to build CP during a RoRo is suggested, you don't want to solely rake due to the likelyhood of overwriting a stronger rake. IE: say RoRo procs when haromm has 2 seconds left. You rake twice, haromms proc ends. You wouldn't want to keep raking due to a RoRo/Haromm buffed rake already being applied. Not the biggest deal but its all these little things that will push your dps.

3) Rip uptimes. Obviously you know its something you can work on. Like Alpheus stated, slow down, take a breathe. Feral is a very "stopy" spec. You rarely ever want to fully dump all your energy. Always try to be in the 80-90 range when you use skills so you have the ability/energy to react to procs and use them effectively.

4) SR uptime. I didn't look at every log but the first one had you around 88% uptime on SR. This HAS to be 100%. Its the single largest buff in damage, have it up always.

5) Make sure you treat thrash like you do rip/rake. Try to fit it in at the end of your procs after you got rip/rake up.

6) Once you get used to the bleed strength addon you use try to take it a step further. Try to think ahead and decide when it make sense to overwrite a better bleed with a weaker one. Yes this sounds like it contradicts everything that was just said but there is a place for it. IE: You have a RoRo buffed rip up on the boss with 6 seconds left. Haromms proc'd just after you got the rip up and is about to fall off. You have 5 cp up and your bleed strength addon is telling you your current bleed is stronger than the one you could apply. Do you reapply rip even tho it overwrites a RoRo proc!? YES. Why? Because if you waited you would be applying a non buffed rip in the next 5-6 seconds. Instead you overwrite those last 5-6 seconds with a full duration rip that has the Haromms buffing it. Basically although you overwrote a stronger bleed with a weaker bleed it is still much stronger than the one you would have applied just seconds later. This takes practice so get the other points down first.

7) DoC. Once you can manage everything else. Get those DoC buffed rakes/rips up and you will be a happy camper. DoC thrash OP.

We all have things we could work on don't get frustrated and take it on one obstacle at a time. I don't claim to be the best feral out there but if you want to run a flex/lfr together and get some more real time feedback feel free to add me neverpulout#1960.

Good luck!

-Never

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby Dysheki » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:26 pm

Neverpullout wrote:Always try to be in the 80-90 range when you use skills so you have the ability/energy to react to procs and use them effectively.


90 is a little too high because you run the risk of energy capping with OoC procs. It's definitely a good idea to pool energy, just be careful not to go into the deep end.
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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:51 am

6) Once you get used to the bleed strength addon you use try to take it a step further. Try to think ahead and decide when it make sense to overwrite a better bleed with a weaker one. Yes this sounds like it contradicts everything that was just said but there is a place for it. IE: You have a RoRo buffed rip up on the boss with 6 seconds left. Haromms proc'd just after you got the rip up and is about to fall off. You have 5 cp up and your bleed strength addon is telling you your current bleed is stronger than the one you could apply. Do you reapply rip even tho it overwrites a RoRo proc!? YES. Why? Because if you waited you would be applying a non buffed rip in the next 5-6 seconds. Instead you overwrite those last 5-6 seconds with a full duration rip that has the Haromms buffing it. Basically although you overwrote a stronger bleed with a weaker bleed it is still much stronger than the one you would have applied just seconds later. This takes practice so get the other points down first.


I think this is the crucial part I'm so weak in at the moment. Getting off Ovale and using Stenhaldi's WA script is helping get my head around this now. Thank you for the very sound advice. It's going to take a lot of practice but I think I'm improving little by little.

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Re: At wit's end... again.

Postby bearpelt » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:52 pm

These are logs from last night's raid:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kgor9 ... boss=71865

I've managed to bump up my Rip and Rake uptimes with a significant DPS increase (Garrosh only lol) but my Thrash is still about 65% ._____. Thank you so much, fellow kitties. I don't feel so horrible any more but know there's still room for a lot of improvement!

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