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Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the game

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Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the game

Postby Kraineth » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:33 pm

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/4 ... 7506075648

Am I missing something here? I'm pretty sure Berserk is widely agreed upon to be a weak CD, it's just something to use on CD because you should. One of the main complaints about feral is the lack of any sort of controlled burst.

I mean sure I hold berserk to Kill Korven during an Amber bait on paragons, but is it actually that powerful compared to having good bleeds already rolling? No

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby istanu » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:02 pm

I agree. All berserk does is letting you mangle more and ferocious bite more. But our majority part of DPS is from rake and rip, and since we are already keeping the up time of these two dots at 100%, berserk has non effect on them at all. Comparing to other classes' burst, for example, Relentless, Dark Soul, Combustion, I am surprised they say Berserk is "one of the strongest CD".

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Dargaron » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:48 pm

Considering we work around getting strong bleeds up, and how weak ferocious bite is, I can't see why berserk would be considered that great.

Go back to wrath and I'd have agreed with Celestalon, but comparatively, bite seems like a bit of a wet noodle now.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Textless » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:00 pm

Like everyones saying I find it kind of sub par as far as big cds go. Just look at things like wings, rec, ascendance, arcane power and dark soul(think thats only 2 minutes too D:) It would be very cool if they changed it into more of a haste based thing - might buff its usefulness while still maintaining the flavor of the cd. A buff to ferocious bite might be cool but outside of berserk i don't find myself biting that often? I'm not sure.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Elamari » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:39 pm

I like Berserk and think I can see where he is coming from (still unsure if troll >_> but will respond anyway).

It's not a straight X% buff like Avenging Wrath is for example, it modifies our rotation while it is active by reducing energy costs. Also, when used with Tiger's Fury (as it should be) you have a huge supply of energy plus reduced costs allowing for potentially massive output. How much benefit you get is dependent on your skill level. A skilled player may be able to get a high damage bleed up or cleave a second target, hard cast Thrash or any number of things. Where a not as skilled player may energy cap or not get a bleed up during TF or not use a finisher at 5 CP.
I acknowledge that FB is extremely week and depending on gear you can become GCD locked and often have to spam Mangle (or preferably Shred) to stop energy capping, its not without it's limitation, but I think I can see why Celestalon think it is a powerful CD. We have to remember that Twitter doesn't allow for in-depth explanations. We are extrapolating a lot from this short reply.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him, but that I think I can see where he is coming from. Trying to look at the spell more objectively.

Dargaron wrote:Go back to wrath and I'd have agreed with Celestalon, but comparatively, bite seems like a bit of a wet noodle now.


I don't think you can compare game mechanics now to what they were in wrath. Bleeds had shorter durations and we had to keep mangle up. Back then Berserk allowed for some straight throughput rather than just managing bleeds and buffs / debuffs.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby aggixx » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:50 am

Elamari wrote:Trying to look at the spell more objectively.

Looking at it objectively, it's still weak, and it's definitely not one of the strongest cooldowns in the game.

On the bright side, we know Celestalon almost definitely doesn't play a feral druid.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby aggixx » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:26 am

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Disclaimer: Yes that's with Archimonde's Darkness. And no I didn't cherry pick the best cooldown, I just thought "Hey Affliction Locks probably have a better cooldown than us, let's find out."

TL;DR: Berserk is 40% as good as Misery for patchwerk DPS.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Kraineth » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:39 am

Elamari wrote:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him, but that I think I can see where he is coming from. Trying to look at the spell more objectively.


I can't though, I use Berserk for the same reason I use Innervate when a healer calls for it, I have the ability bound and it's been in the game for years, so I might as well press it. But I still want to roll my eyes when I do it because its not fun, not powerful, and is probably the weakest CD in the game, contradictory to what Celestalon said.

People have been asking for a change to Berserk for years, usually a %dmg increase and a smaller reduction on abilities. I'd say WoD is the time for it, unless they really are removing most DPS CD's like they mentioned in the Watercooler Post, but I really doubt classes are going to lose their major cooldowns, just the weird semi-useless ones like shadowblades for rogues, which is a category I would certainly throw Berserk into unfortunately.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:12 am

Berserk has only ~45% the uptime of dark soul (with Archimonde's darkness) over a 450-second fight (average default simc length), so depending on how you measure CD strength, you could argue that it's only a little weaker. In particular, the fractional damage increase while berserk is up is only a little smaller than the fractional damage increase while dark soul is up. But that's not entirely fair either, because the value of dark soul (with Archimonde's darkness) is inflated by the ability to synchronize it with procs, and if you use it that way, it's not really controlled burst damage.

Anyway, in the default simc fight length range, berserk has roughly 9.59% uptime and its usage results in ~3.34% more overall damage -- meaning the fractional damage increase while berserk is up is about 35%. That's actually a lot larger than it feels to me, probably because a 35% increase is absolutely eclipsed by trinket procs these days.

But at 35%, it's not even close to to being the strongest DPS cooldown. An enhancement shaman's ascendance, by similar math, works out to about a 58% damage increase while it's active -- and that's just one of their 2-3 DPS cooldowns (depending on talent choice). A windwalker monk's tigereye brew grants a 60% damage increase while it's active.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Alpheus » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:36 am

Maybe he meant it in a WoD context where bleeds are devalued?

Edit:

Still, even if they're devalued bleeds will still be an integral component of our dps and berserk is just a "band aid" to our core problem of long single-target ramp-up.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:37 am

I do like the flavor of berserk, though. With the frantic button pressing it feels like I'm berserk. And between bleed devaluation and the pruning of other class cooldowns, it may end up being sufficient for our encounter-specific burst damage needs -- especially coupled with a possibly-to-be-viable incarnation talent.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby raffy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:12 am

FB damage probably needs to be adjusted for Berserk to feel powerful again.

My biggest complaint about Berserk is that its value is derived purely from increased ability use -- instead of continuing the standard rotation and doing higher damage (like a damage modifier based cooldown.) In PvP, being partially CC'd while Berserk completely neutralizing its benefit, whereas a damage modifier would still be useful. In PvE, after a few seconds into Berserk, all our bleeds are active and our rotation shifts over to direct damage (generator generator generator FB) which is poor damage in comparsion. Berserk AoE is still pretty great though.

Since they want to avoid cooldown stacking, I wonder about the fate of Incarnation+Berserk.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby teddabear » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:44 am

Disheartening to see Blizzard say something like that.

Imo Berserk is so weak for single target that in a fight with adds it is worth giving up 1 or even more extra Berserks in order to to use it on the add phase.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Kraineth » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:28 pm

Since Stenhaldi mentioned Incarnation, how about Incarnation now replaces berserk, transforms Shred into Ravage decreases energy cost of abilities by x% and increases damage of shred/swipe/mangle by y%

The achieves a few things, namely reducing ability bloat since incarnation always gets used with berserk. It also turns that talent row into sustained(sotf) big burst(incarnation) and short duration small burst(FoN). Which allows choice depending on the fight, which is something I think feral really needs, flexibility on fight that require specific burst phases as well as good sustained.

I think it's important to keep swipe on there since like teddabear mentioned it is quite nice to have the flexibility to be used for AoE.

Just for the sake of the idea, incarnation would also replace CA for boomkins, probably nothing for resto, and im unsure about Guardian since chaining berserk+Incarnation is pretty nice for rage gen, but they also do somewhat fulfill the same role, but mangle cleaving for 30 seconds might he a bit much.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:31 pm

Alpheus wrote:Maybe he meant it in a WoD context where bleeds are devalued?

Edit:

Still, even if they're devalued bleeds will still be an integral component of our dps and berserk is just a "band aid" to our core problem of long single-target ramp-up.

Doubt he meant that. Otherwise he would not have said "I am bewildered why you think that". As none of us have more then guesses about how we will look in WoD he wouldn't be surprised.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:57 pm

raffy wrote:FB damage probably needs to be adjusted for Berserk to feel powerful again.

My biggest complaint about Berserk is that its value is derived purely from increased ability use -- instead of continuing the standard rotation and doing higher damage (like a damage modifier based cooldown.) In PvP, being partially CC'd while Berserk completely neutralizing its benefit, whereas a damage modifier would still be useful. In PvE, after a few seconds into Berserk, all our bleeds are active and our rotation shifts over to direct damage (generator generator generator FB) which is poor damage in comparsion. Berserk AoE is still pretty great though.

Since they want to avoid cooldown stacking, I wonder about the fate of Incarnation+Berserk.

They said all during MoP Beta they wanted to avoid cooldown stacking and that it wasn't interesting. Then they made Incarnation, NI, and Berserk all stack up.

I wanted to say this in twitter last night, but couldn't make it fit and still sound right. We have been jerked back and forth on our damage spread the last 2 expansions because our Mastery and our Cooldown are from differing design schools. They don't work together at all. Over the last 3 expacs we have swung back and forth between direct damage being our primary damage dealer, and Bleeds being our primary damage dealer. If we expect to see direct damage come back into being a bigger piece of our over all damage pie then Berserk will become relevant again. However that will mean that Mastery will become less relevant. We also run the risk of Berserk suddenly becoming too powerful in PVP which will put us right back into the silly swing again.

We need the designers to decided what kind of class they want us to be. Are we a direct damage class that uses DoT's to augment our damage, or are we a Dot class that uses direct damage abilities to empower our DoTs and adjust Berserk and our Mastery to be complimentary rather than exclusive.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby aggixx » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:55 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:We need the designers to decided what kind of class they want us to be. Are we a direct damage class that uses DoT's to augment our damage, or are we a Dot class that uses direct damage abilities to empower our DoTs and adjust Berserk and our Mastery to be complimentary rather than exclusive.

Honestly I don't think it matters to them which one they consider us, and I'm not trying to berate them I just think that's the truth of it.

The pendulum definitely did swing too far to towards periodic damage this expansion, and while Feral as a spec works just fine at the moment, its not without its flaws. I suspect (and hope) that their goal is to bring us to the balance we had in Cataclysm (Dragon Soul specifically since I had the most experience with Feral then); you couldn't say that Feral was exclusively a dot or direct damage dealer, both were integral parts of how it played.

Our cooldowns are definitely more direct damage oriented, but honestly I don't think that's an issue at all as long as our direct damage isn't completely neglected as it has been this expansion; having a balanced damage breakdown allows them to be just as useful as they need to be without them being overwhelmingly powerful.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:33 pm

I think I should rephrase cause reading what I wrote sounds whiny and I don't like that.

I would like the designers to pick out they want us to be and try to work with it. Give us an interesting mechanic that will stick around.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Jimbizzle » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:09 pm

I felt like after they introduced mastery and removed armor pen, it's been nothing but bleeds for feral druid. It seems as if Blizzard wants it to be like that as well.. I personally don't really enjoy relying on good trinket procs before BitW kicks in and hoping for a big rip, that's not really anything "skillful" but just rolling the dice. If the system was similar to WotLK when spamming shred was the best way to do big DPS (ofc keeping R+R up) that was a lot more enjoyable, especially when we talk about popping "big" cooldowns, spamming ravage isn't fun and berserk at the moment is just a shit deadly calm essentially.

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Elamari » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:15 pm

In Cata we had the glpyh that increased Berserk's duration by 10 secs. What are peoples thoughts on making this baseline i.e. 25 secs instead of 15? This doesn't address the design conflicts mentioned, but it might be more significant given the crowd control changes coming especially for PVP. Longer duration would also mean higher up time and arguably contribute to making it "~better".

I also like the flavour of the CD. I wouldn't like to see the energy reduction component removed entirely, but maybe reduced with an added X% damage bonus or something that empowers dots. I also like the suggested idea of Incarnation replacing Berserk in that talent tier for button bloat etc... but not sure how this would effect the other specs...

aggixx wrote:TL;DR: Berserk is 40% as good as Misery for patchwerk DPS.

I don't think you can compare spells in a vacuum like this without considering the whole tool kit and for the other issues Sten brought up.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby aggixx » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:51 pm

I specifically stated "for patchwerk DPS" to declare that I was only evaluating a single criteria, I definitely would be careful not to mistake my statement for "40% as useful" as that has much broader implications. Obviously there's several ways you could look at it, but my point was that if there's another cooldown that's 2.5 times as important as Berserk for single target patchwerk DPS, then it's clearly not "one of the strongest cooldowns in the game", at least in the general sense, as a strong cooldown would be of notable value in most if not all circumstances.

Elamari wrote:In Cata we had the glpyh that increased Berserk's duration by 10 secs. What are peoples thoughts on making this baseline i.e. 25 secs instead of 15? This doesn't address the design conflicts mentioned, but it might be more significant given the crowd control changes coming especially for PVP. Longer duration would also mean higher up time and arguably contribute to making it "~better".

I would rather it be brought down a 2 minute cooldown, or the effect be otherwise changed. As far as I'm concerned the effect is too weak for how infrequently you can use it so adjusting either part of that would make it feel less underwhelming.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Sibylle » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:45 am

Stenhaldi wrote:I do like the flavor of berserk, though. With the frantic button pressing it feels like I'm berserk. And between bleed devaluation and the pruning of other class cooldowns, it may end up being sufficient for our encounter-specific burst damage needs -- especially coupled with a possibly-to-be-viable incarnation talent.

This, pretty much. I've always loved Berserk for being able to go wild at button-mashing. It's why I love the AoC trinket while other people have said it's not that great overall - it reduces the TF and Berserk cooldowns and I love using them 3-4 times per fight.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Alpheus » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:10 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I think I should rephrase cause reading what I wrote sounds whiny and I don't like that.

I would like the designers to pick out they want us to be and try to work with it. Give us an interesting mechanic that will stick around.


I believe the mastery-scaling of Berserk is a valid concern and I see no other viable solution other than changing our mastery. Granted, they can try to hotfix and tweak Savage Roar and Rip numbers every major patch, but that's such an aggressively binary move (you either become super-high dps or super-low) that I can't imagine them wanting to do this for another expansion. Haste-capping is also an issue that berserk doesn't address and with a lot of "cooldown stacking" gone, Bloodlust+berserk is going to be so much more potent.

Because of devalued bleeds it may come to a point where we no longer rely on bleeds thus making our mastery entirely useless and we'd be avoiding it as much as we were trying to hoard it pre-rune in MoP. This would come pretty close to the passive gameplay of Retribution paladins and we all know how performing and fun they were this tier, not.
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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Vularo » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:58 am

Let berserk increase your haste by X, instead of 50% less resource costs.
so our bleeds benefit , and we can spam styles like now. problem solved

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Re: Celestalon: Berserk is one of the strongest CD's in the

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:00 pm

Bleeds don't benefit from Haste in any way. The boost to energy regeneration from Haste is so poor even with high levels we would barely notice the difference for the 15 second duration.

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