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SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

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SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby bacevicius » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:09 pm

I simmed as edgy had with all defaults etc.. since when do the 3 trees equal 370k SOTF vs 377K with FON.. taking HOTW last... how would you rotate that in to a keyboard that has almost every key bound I can reach for combat , and the 2 mouse keys are used... Edgy I seen you opt for HOTW and FON . I find DOC almost impossible to do error free thus I only use it on nourushen , one boss fights etc. even then I once broke 400k on our last heroic 25 kill. all the others are in the 330-370ish and a am aware of staying under the 25 corrupt and not close to the orb expl... so I know that its quite variable. I have decided to stick with HOTW but can you explain how you rotate your FON and key binds and or macros , I see you have RORO but I have ted and Tal 567 and it still comes out 7k ahead .. can you help .. I only macro my pot for the second zerk otherwise everything is own its own key.
I d like to have an extra 7k if its not very difficult to add in..
Thanks

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby raffy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:31 pm

I use SotF/DoC or SotF/HotW in PvE, but I like HotW/FoN for PvP. For me, FoN is too annoying in PvE. Starting from HotW/SotF (double passive) going to DoC is better than going to FoN. FoN is pretty optimized in Catus, it was the first ability that got improved bleed logic.

I use [V] for FoN, which used to be Travel Form (which is now [shift+V] since that ability is so rarely used now). Normally, my V is blank. Occasionally, I'll put Vortex there too. I don't recommend using [V].

FoN Logic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4574&p=19233#p19233
Combat Log Example: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4574&p=19313#p19313

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby bacevicius » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:04 pm

yeah I do see why you would use soft on multi targs, but I am not understanding the bleed logic for the extra 7 to 8 k with HOTW and FON plus ovale and leafkillers script dosent even show when to use them other than the first box after that your own your own unless im doing something wrong or maybe they are only in the script if you have RORO which I do not... can someone that PVE's and has tried this verify that it is that much more on a single target and whether ovale has a problem or do I need to open up more boxes besides the one big one

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby raffy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:11 pm

When you have FoN talent selected, if you scroll down to "Computed Statistics" and [alt]-click "FoN", you get the absolute damage threshold of the Treant Rake that's being used by Catus. This number is derived from simulation by using your current buffs/gear/procs/consumables/etc.
Code: Select all
Trigger: 42051 (1.71x)

Then, if you normally click [FoN] to get a damage table, you'll get an idea of where that threshold lands:
Code: Select all
 Power Average    Tick    Crit     AP  Crit% Bleed  #
 3.53x   86784   55826  111651 125105  55.5% 4.45x  4  SS  DS  HT<580>  RoR<549>
 3.38x   83024   53938  107875 120863  53.9% 4.45x  3  SS      HT<580>  RoR<549>
 3.35x   82413   53628  107257 120168  53.7% 4.45x  3      DS  HT<580>  RoR<549>
 3.20x   78720   51740  103481 115926  52.1% 4.45x  2          HT<580>  RoR<549>
 2.22x   54477   38521   77041  86222  41.4% 4.45x  3  SS  DS           RoR<549>
 2.09x   51245   36632   73263  81978  39.9% 4.45x  2  SS               RoR<549>
 2.06x   50723   36323   72647  81285  39.6% 4.45x  2      DS           RoR<549>
 1.94x   47560   34436   68872  77044  38.1% 4.45x  1                   RoR<549>
 1.80x   44224   25284   50569 125105  74.9% 2.02x  3  SS  DS  HT<580>         
 1.72x   42354   24429   48859 120863  73.4% 2.02x  2  SS      HT<580>         
 1.71x   42051   24289   48578 120168  73.1% 2.02x  2      DS  HT<580>     
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (threshold)     
 1.64x   40212   23434   46868 115926  71.6% 2.02x  1          HT<580>         
 1.14x   28067   17447   34893  86222  60.9% 2.02x  2  SS  DS                   
 1.08x   26437   16591   33182  81978  59.3% 2.02x  1  SS                       
 1.07x   26173   16451   32903  81285  59.1% 2.02x  1      DS                   
 1.00x   24574   15597   31193  77044  57.6% 2.02x  0                           

[Temporary]
 1. SS          +1920 Agility
 2. DS          +1650 Agility
 3. HT<580>     +15124 Agility
 4. RoR<549>    +46674 Mastery, -11667 Haste, -11670 Crit

Corresponding Threshold: either Haromm's (coupled with Springs or Dancing Steel) or Rune or anything better than these.
When? use FoN as late as possible and never cap out on charges.

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby bacevicius » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:38 pm

Power Average Tick Crit AP Crit% Bleed #
2.90x 56480 30221 60443 152095 86.9% 1.91x 3 DS HT<567> TED<567>
2.80x 54688 29493 58986 148421 85.4% 1.91x 2 HT<567> TED<567>
2.18x 42550 24308 48616 122269 75.0% 1.91x 2 DS TED<567>
Trigger: 29537 (1.57x)

2.10x 40931 23579 47159 118595 73.6% 1.91x 1 TED<567>
1.65x 32196 19470 38940 97869 65.4% 1.91x 2 DS HT<567>
1.57x 30719 18742 37484 94197 63.9% 1.91x 1 HT<567>
1.07x 20812 13556 27113 68043 53.5% 1.91x 1 DS
1.00x 19507 12828 25657 64371 52.1% 1.91x 0

[Permanent]
1. Debuffs +4% Damage

[Temporary]
1. DS +1650 Agility
2. HT<567> +13399 Agility
3. TED<567> +24360 Agility

now I don't know what that means but that's what came out should I be using it . even tho it sims 8k more?

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby bacevicius » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:42 pm

also there is no box that says when to use them , am I supposed to just keep using them and not let them ever cap whether trinks are up or not or do I have to watch for trinkets to proc then press the treant tree , I am not sure what that trigger 1.57 was but im getting way way lower on target dummys it starts at 308 k like it says but I end up in the 260-275 k range

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby raffy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:57 pm

Reformating your data:
Code: Select all
Power Average Tick Crit AP Crit% Bleed #
2.90x 56480 30221 60443 152095 86.9% 1.91x 3 DS HT<567> TED<567>
2.80x 54688 29493 58986 148421 85.4% 1.91x 2 HT<567> TED<567>
2.18x 42550 24308 48616 122269 75.0% 1.91x 2 DS TED<567>
2.10x 40931 23579 47159 118595 73.6% 1.91x 1 TED<567>
1.65x 32196 19470 38940 97869 65.4% 1.91x 2 DS HT<567>
1.57x 30719 18742 37484 94197 63.9% 1.91x 1 HT<567>
-------------------------------------------------------- Trigger: 29537 (1.57x)
1.07x 20812 13556 27113 68043 53.5% 1.91x 1 DS
1.00x 19507 12828 25657 64371 52.1% 1.91x 0

[Permanent]
1. Debuffs +4% Damage

[Temporary]
1. DS +1650 Agility
2. HT<567> +13399 Agility
3. TED<567> +24360 Agility

This one is easy:
-- if your HT procs, wait as long as possible to burn your charges.
-- if TED procs, burn them immediately.

What you watch for: any trinket proc


Did your in-game buffs/debuffs/combat-duration match your target dummy setup?

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby bacevicius » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:05 am

No because I haven't done a 7.5 min setup and and obviously I am supposed to pop them on any trink.. but the thread says never let any one go to waste and / or do I wait and not pop any treants even if ted and HT are at 1.5 and 1 max I pop all three or pop one every time one is refreshed?

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Re: SOTF VS FON with HOTW on catus

Postby raffy » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:51 am

You pop what you have (1-2 trees, never 3 since you'd be capped) either at end of HS proc or start of TED proc. Never sit at 3 charges, just burn one if you're going to cap. With the proper DPS threshold (like the one used in Catus), this should be a rare occurrence (since the threshold is determined by doing worst-case analysis of damage for your gear/buffs/etc. available over the a 1-minute window -- the time it takes for a full recharge.)

You could make a WeakAura that computes the estimated Treant Rake damage like Catus, and just goes "Red/Green" if the damage is above the calculated threshold.

I think about it as a damage threshold, and not "X trinket or Y proc", because there are often multiple combinations of things that satisfy the threshold, like Potion+SS+DS might be enough to hit the threshold in certain situations.

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