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Wait to take DoC?

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Wait to take DoC?

Postby Lynxx » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:31 pm

Hey all!
So I just switched to feral about a week and a half ago. Loving every minute btw :D . I am using droodfocus with the number percentages turned on for dot power. I am running HotW and SotF to start out with. I am using Rogue power bars to watch trinket procs and such. I'm going to switch to weak auras this week when I can get some time to set it up. I've been simming with Catus, great little program btw!. I'm still not up to where Catus has me but I'm constantly improving and I know the mistakes I'm making. I am still working towards a RoR. I have a possible 4pc but it is mostly flex gear. I am currently running the 2pc due to me getting a few normal and heroic pieces. Should I wait until I have a normal or heroic 4pc or RoR to take DoC? Or should I get myself used to feral a bit more before jumping into DoC-land? Or just learn to play with DoC straight away?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/bleeding-hollow/L%c3%bfnxx/advanced

Just trying to get an idea of where I should head next and what I should try to optimize.

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby aggixx » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:02 am

Just depends how comfortable you are with what you're doing so far, there's no reason you can't mess around with DoC if you think you're ready for it (or even if you're just feeling adventurous)! Of course, keep in mind while it is better damage (regardless of what gear you have) if you're at least decent at it, but you are trading away HotW's utility for the big fat nothing that DoC provides. Not saying that should stop you necessary, but it is an important thing to keep in mind.

I would say definitely plan to learn it eventually even if you decide not to now, as even if you find the utility from HotW vital to the content you're doing there's still a place for DoC on certain encounters.
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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby Lynxx » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:30 am

Yeah as long as we are progressing I will probably be running HotW. That extra tranq and rejuvs can be invaluable sometimes. I'm also curious as to how dot snapshotting being removed will affect DoC. Will there still be some form of Snapshotting happening with spells such as that? If not, I'm assuming DoC will diminish in value quite a bit. I guess this is all assuming they still have us putting as much emphasis on bleeds as on live. I hope so. I wouldn't mind having a bit more direct damage and a better balance between the two. I love being a bleed class! I see a lot of people crying already, but goodness it's so early. I couldn't see me ever taking savagery if it stays as is. If I did that I would just go play an assassin rogue.
WTB beta asap! =D
I will probably just have DoC in my back pocket and practice with it in a few random flexes just to get a feel for it.
Oh! One quick question. What would be the optimal opener for just having your 2pc? Most of the ones I have seen are focused on the 4pc. Currently I am just SR to 14sec, pot, mangle, mangle, TF, rake, rip if at 5cp, berserk, thrash, and continue.

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby aggixx » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:21 am

Snapshotting of stats is gone, but ability-based buffs will still snapshot (Tiger's Fury, Dream of Cenarius, etc). DoC will be rebalanced around the absence of snapshotting; it should still be slightly more rewarding than the other options in it's tier as it is the "active" option.

"Optimal" opener with 2pc is the same as 4pc (without Ticking Ebon Detonator), just a lot tighter. Basically:

Healing Touch -> Spam SR a bit -> Pre-pot -> Stealth -> Ravage -> Rake -> Shred to 5 CP -> Rip -> Shred to 4/5 CP -> Healing Touch -> Rip then Rake or vice versa (depending on how much CP you're at) -> Thrash -> Shred until SR about to end -> SR

Using TF and Berserk as soon as you have less than 40 energy. With 4-pc the only difference is that you would make sure to use TF & Berserk prior to the first Rip regardless of energy.

Assuming you have a 10s trinket, the goal is to get the Rip and Rake in before that proc ends, if you can get Thrash in too that's great. Like I said it is a bit tight without 4pc, if you get no Primal Fury or Clearcasting procs, or the boss moves funny and messes with your GCDs, then you may not be able to get the 2nd Rip in; that's fine though, that's what the first Rip is for (insurance!).

Oh, and without DoC you would drop the healing touches and FB instead of the 2nd Rip, otherwise it's the same.
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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby Abdir » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:59 am

Just a question regarding the opener, with HCTF Run+ Assurance HC is this correct opener?
pre-pull HT>Stealth>Svage roar >Ravage>Rake>TF+Beserk>Rake 5cp>Savage Roar>Shred+ HT+Rake (rune proc rake+ doc+all other sht)> RIP (All buffs) is this correct? Also what do I do when I almost about to cap energy and have all bleeds up, keep FB 5cp? Finally What does energy pooling mean and how do I do it sucesfully?
Thanks for any response!

- Abdir

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby aggixx » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:28 am

Like I said in my above post, Rip should be your first 5 point finisher unless you're planning around something going horribly wrong with your opener (you shouldn't be). All you're doing by SRing there is wasting the majority of the SR you put up at the start of the fight, losing ~3-6 seconds of Rip uptime, and having no insurance if you fail to get your 2nd Rip in before Rune falls. Make sure you're not wasting any energy when you use TF & Berserk, if you can; and you definitely will if you're just using it after Ravage -> Rake (although you want to make sure to use it before your first finisher if you have 4p).

Basically it's pretty much the same as I said above but with more Rake, just make sure you're not clipping a Rake and putting yourself in a place where you can't get one just as strong back up. Note that I said "Spam SR" in my sequence, you can get an extra 3 seconds of SR going into the pull if you cast it a couple times instead of 1.

Energy pooling is almost exclusively done when you reach 5 CP and have nothing to spend it on (eg: SR duration is high, Rip duration is alright and you can't apply a stronger one). When that happens you want to wait until about 1 second before your energy fills (85-90 energy) before resorting to FBing if nothing has changed. The key here is that you're waiting to apply a Rip or SR, not just to make the FB hit harder. When you're waiting like that, you want to be watching like a hawk for anything would cause you to change your mind and cast SR or Rip instead of the FB, and if it doesn't happen by the 85-90 mark then just go ahead and FB.

The caveat on pooling is you don't want to do it at a time that would push back your TF, if you reach 5 CP @ 50 energy and have nothing to do but Bite, and TF is coming off cooldown, then just Bite so you can get to TFing.
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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby Helistar » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:23 am

AoC on the opening is downright aggravating.
Sometimes everything goes well and you get RoR+AoC procs, sometimes AoC procs one year (ok, slight exaggeration :)) later, messing up any kind of DoT refreshing you may have planned.
Personally (note: I run HotW), I don't start with Stealth-Ravage but prefer SR-spam while waiting, FFF while running in, Rake (usually RoR-ed, since RoR can proc off FFF), Rake-spam while I use TF+Berserk and RoR is up, apply Rip asap before RoR ends, then I really have to look at bleed ratios to see what is going on. Sometimes you get both trinket procs, the initial bleeds are the biggest and then it's a matter of shred/mangle+FB, sometimes AoC procs after the end of RoR but you get another RoR proc a few seconds later, so it's DoT-refresh time while in panic mode do do it before the pre-pot ends.
If you have recount open, the difference in the initial DPS of the various cases is enormous, something which I'm not sure I like and which makes it impossible to get an idea of what you're doing on the early wipes, since when the combat is short you can find yourself oscillating between the top and the bottom of the meters.

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby Abdir » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:45 pm

Thank you for response appreciate it!

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby xahn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:57 am

aggixx I got two questions. one about the opener 4pc and another about the energy pooling before FB.

#1 - 4pc opener : I actually been using another opener of which you get a fully buffed Rip right from the start, I am sure you familiar with it. it will be DoC'd + TF'ed + Synapse'd (being an engineer) + both trinkets on.

so it's as strong as rip can be basically from a person's gear, do you not recommend this opener? since I didn't see you write about it here. it goes like this for the poeple that don't know about it.

Healing touch -> Target boss (important) -> pre-pot -> TF -> SR (to get 3 pnts up on boss) -> Ravage (now 5 pnts up on boss and trinkets will proc) -> a quick cd macro (beserker + troll serking + synapse) all of which has no gcd so it doesn't slow you down -> RIP -> HEALING TOUCH -> RAKE -> THRASH. -> now you still got berserk up and rest so spam shreds, with FBs as finisher until the time to refresh something.

as you can see, my three bleeds are now all buffed with DoC + TF + synapse + trinkets. if you do this quickly ofcourse. and tbh with you, I've seen my burst jump quiet alot when I start using this at the start of the fight especially. So what is wrong with this opener?


#2 - the energy pooling to 85 to 90 before using FB : Why not use thrash, if rip is relaxed, and SR is relaxed, and you got nothing to do, why pool for FB instead of pooling for thrash? I heard about using clearcasting for thrash, but then I also heard that its a myth. And I think using thrash is far better than a FB, but then again I wonder what you think about that since I trust your information.

Thanks!

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby xahn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:01 am

p.s. Lynxx, welcome to the feral forums. I checked your profile and I would just like to mention that you're stats are completely messed up. I'm not sure if its intentional or if you're exparamating something or testing or whatever, but you're crit is far higher than mastery as I'm seeing the profile, this will mess up your RoRo proc. you should reforge/regem to make mastery + 1 = crit = haste - so with mastery being higher by one point at least. you got crit at 9k+ and mastery at 8k ish

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby Lynxx » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:50 am

Thanks Pawnee! Glad to be here! Yeah Im sure my gear was all over the place a couple of hours ago. Got a few new pieces and was switching stuff around. Should be fixed now. Thanks to everyone on here for the help. I am greatly enjoying feral and improving everyday! I have found myself playing around more with DoC. I got a few too many TF, DOC, RoR, pot Rips in and now i think i am addicted to DoC lol. Such a fun spec! I wish I hadnt been tied to healing for the majority of this expansion. WoD I'm refusing to go back heals lol.

Also at one point in me getting a piece here or there and upgrading, AMR had my mastery at least 2k higher than my crit and haste. Is this just an optimization thing? Will that happen at certain points just because a certain ratio cant be achieved? Still gave me a beefy rune proc but was concerning that i couldnt get them any closer. i double checked and AMR was set correctly.

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Re: Wait to take DoC?

Postby aggixx » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:54 am

pawnee wrote:so it's as strong as rip can be basically from a person's gear, do you not recommend this opener? since I didn't see you write about it here. it goes like this for the poeple that don't know about it.

I was giving advice specifically for the OP who does not have Ticking Ebon Detonator. If you do not have TED, the opener you describe is not worth doing (otherwise it is, if you can do it correctly).
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