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Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:44 am

Not only does Savagery remove complexity, but it is also significantly worse in dps gain than the other two, even on strictly single target merits. It should not be there.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:45 am

I thought 10k sounded it a bit off... just couldn't be bothered to check. That seems more reasonable (and by more reasonable I mean less reasonable, if you know what I mean).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Corv » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:32 am

I'll grant the 50k delta, then. Definitely more than "marginal," but that 360k is still within the normal range of the DPS I sampled earlier to estimate Iron Juggernaut performance. If the spec is still capable of that performance without intentional snapshotting, I'm not so sure it's problematic. Putting exceptional performance in the hands of players who go to extraordinary lengths sounds like good design, to me.

Shmoo, you say that you lost 2% of your damage when you missed that Rake, and fell to the middle of the pack in DPS. Is your guild so skilled and your raiders so close in performance that only 2% separates the best from the middle? If that's not the case, I'd look more towards that proc uptime, or to other variances in the execution of the fight that week. 2% is still a heavy blow for a minor misstep, but I think that says more about the more generally problematic nature of beginning-of-fight proc coincidence. Had you missed a Rake refresh at any other point in the fight, I cannot believe it would be so egregious.

Hulla, I'd not read too much into that comparison at this point in the game. Everything will be retuned, but, assuming that all of the relevant abilities are worthwhile in the single-target rotation, we can make some broad inferences about the rotations:
  • Savagery will save energy and CP from SR casts, and therefore cast far more FBs than the others.
  • Bloody Thrash will spend more energy directly by replacing Rake with Thrash, but generate more CP from repurposed OoC procs.
  • Lunar Inspiration will save a small amount of energy from replacing some Shreds with Moonfires.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:49 am

Corv wrote:
  • Savagery will save energy and CP from SR casts, and therefore cast far more FBs than the others.
  • Bloody Thrash will spend more energy directly by replacing Rake with Thrash, but generate more CP from repurposed OoC procs.
  • Lunar Inspiration will save a small amount of energy from replacing some Shreds with Moonfires.

Pretty much just playing devil's advocate here so take no offense, but:

Savagery does not grant as many FBs as you seem to assume. Some preliminary sims I was doing were showing that it already casts quite a few FBs without the talent just because of the other changes that have been made; some extra CP from not having to maintain SR would not make a huge difference.

Bloody Thrash: You also lose CP from casting the thrashes in the first place, at least compared to a Thrashless APL (TBD as to what will be best).

Lunar Inspiration: Unless they make it use attack crit it will generates fewer CP and probably be somewhat comparable to a Shred in CP per energy.

From what I've learned so far toying with SimC (disclaimer: there's several vital things that are broken, and there's also probably shitloads of bugs I don't know about) Savagery and Bloody Thrash will give almost negligible single target gains, and Lunar Inspiration will be the clear winner for single target, albeit not providing a significant increase (probably 2-3%).

I really wish we could get a clarification on what the intent of Lunar Inspiration is. That's kind of important.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Corv » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:33 am

I might be overestimating Savagery, but I'm also not surprised to hear that the simple option is not as effective. At a guess, somewhere near 1FB/40s more than the other options, but slightly more due to relaxed timing, as well?

Doesn't the Bloody Thrash talent add CP generation to the ability? Or are you simply assuming that Thrash, like the current iteration of Swipe, will not trigger Primal Fury?

I would be surprised if Moonfire got stuck in such a weird spell/melee limbo, but more than that, I expect that it will behave similarly to Judgment, whatever that ability does. I've been tweeting Celesty for a response, but nothing yet.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:55 am

Quick notes on the above topics:

"There are no longer different chances to critically strike with melee, ranged, and spells." So moonfire will be efficient at CP generation.

If thrash is worth casting at all (i.e. its damage per energy is larger than that of the shred-ferocious bite pair), than the basic assumption that Bloody Thrash saves you 35 energy per 15 seconds (against a single target) should be regarded as a lower estimate of its value: if you were not otherwise able to maintain 100% thrash uptime, then Bloody Thrash would become even more valuable. Of course, if thrash isn't worth casting, then this starts to devalue Bloody Thrash.

Using 5.4 values for shred damage, ferocious bite damage, and crit chance, I estimated that Savagery is worth roughly 37-44 equivalent energy every 42 seconds. That's less than half the predicted value of Bloody Thrash against a single target as discussed above. Ideally I'd be using Warlords alpha values instead, but the coefficients for ferocious bite don't seem to be available yet.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Corv » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:09 am

Good points. I'd been less interested in actual output than in grokking the flow of the rotations. The note on Moonfire's crit is something I'd forgotten, now we just need confirmation on the interaction between LI/BT and Primal Fury. I suppose we could also use confirmation that these are all intended to impact single-target rotations, but I'd be both disappointed and surprised if that was not the case!

SCRATCH THAT:

@Celestalon W/Lunar Inspiration, will Moonfire use melee crit? Intended to be rotational? Will it (or Bloody Thrash) proc CP via P.Fury?
@corveroth No difference between Melee/Spell/Ranged crits in 6.0. Yes, rotational. Yes, Primal Fury affects it.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:39 am

Here is where I really disagree. Making our off healing more viable is nice for a small percentage of people. Those are the people who were using snapshotting and liked the feel of it. The people who dislike SR, and DoC, and Snapshotting are not going to be the people who like to move outside their comfort zone and weave in heals to other people. They will just tunnel the boss and cheer they "Don't have to hit a heal to do optimal DPS". Does it mean they are playing their character to the max? No. But there is no incentive for them to do anything if it doesn't make the numbers go higher. Sure the logic is that "You will make your raid team more successful". Doesn't mean everyone will do so. Same logic goes for CC requirements. Just because you can CC now because you don't have to tunnel as hard doesn't mean you will be required to do so.


The encounters should contain the incentive. It should be viable to handle different encounters by having dps doing off-healing/damage reduction and CC'ing adds (I consider off-tanking adds as a viable CC). In fact, it should be mandatory to do so. We are talking a fight to the death when engaging raid bosses - not an advanced target dummy.

But wait, didn't Blizzard move away from CC being mandatory, when WotLK was launched? Yep, it seems that most players got frustrated by the CC-heavy fights in TBC instances and these days, most difficulty levels are handled with liberal use of AoE threat, dps and healing. But since then, Blizzard has added CC to every class and so the classes actually support the use of CC (and challenge modes/Heroic raid encounters encourage the use). Blizzard has also made it trivial for tanks to hold threat on an unlimited number of mobs, rendering the Guardian's massive amounts of CC redundant.

So, encounters which rewards (and, on some difficulty levels, demands) the use of most of our abilities (including healing and CC) would add real complexity to the game. And it would be in-line with both concept and design of the future Feral spec. In fact, keeping dot snap-shotting would be detrimental to the playstyle outlined above.

You see, the snap-shotting promotes conservative play. To excel at snap-shotting, a Feral has to surveil own ressources (energy and CP) and procs, in order to apply the most optimal dot's. For this to work in the best way possible, you need to stay close to the same target for the whole fight, pooling ressources and watching the procs via addons. Most of us following this discussion excel at this type of gameplay - but we should be aware of the fact that we're also balanced around it. It comes with drawbacks.

The biggest drawback for me (besides the fact that it feels pretty much like advanced target dummy practice) is that the playstyle becomes Laid-back Cat. Watching 3 dot's, a debuff, a self-buff, target orientation, energy level and 2 (sometimes 3) damage CD's really isn't that taxing (I play with SotF/HotW - and therefore don't use FoN/DoC). But the ressource pooling and the waiting-for-dat-proc game is too laid-back for me. I'd much rather prefer to be better at target swapping (the CP change will be amazing for that, together with our extreme mobility), do some off-healing and CC (cat durid iz 4 fite - not for target dummy practice) and maybe even role-swapping mid-fight.

When snap-shotting is gone, all of the above can be done with significant less loss of dps. Our balancing will NOT be done around a snap-shotting mechanic and that will allow us to interact much more proactively to each encounter with a smaller dps loss - maybe even with a dps gain by setting up multiple Rips/Rakes (no CP loss when changing targets). We will also be much less in the hands of the Goddess of Luck than we are now (oh, you didn't get those procs to align perfectly for Rip when target dipped below 25%? Tough luck!).

I also hope that our damage model will shift a bit away from being so massively dot reliant to let our direct damage abilities shine more. I believe my dot's do over 60% of my damage now (with legendary meta and cloak and the Haromm trinket). All these dot's and Savage Roar basically throttle our damage and that doesn't fit with the overall bestiality of a Feral. It would be nice for FB to actually be a dps gain (since it is, afterall, a CP finisher - yeah, I tend to forget that as well) and allow Shred to do some damage for it's energy cost. I'd like that.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby teddabear » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:08 am

Alaron wrote:
I think this hits the nail on the head for where Blizzard is going. There's a design decision in there as to how much of a space you want between a skill floor and skill ceiling - too little, and the expert players complain about not having anything to do; too much, and the new players give up too quickly. Speaking of the entire playerbase, Feral's main problem has been its complexity (or perceived complexity, which amounts to the same thing). As such, my expectation is for the initial class mechanics to be fairly bland, and for the complexity to be added in via encounter scenarios, trinkets, and set bonuses. Once we see those, then we'll have a better idea of where we might be ending up.

(As a sidenote - my observation is that Blizzard tends to oscillate between designing for the casual and for the experienced, and MoP was definitely more casual-focused, so I'm relatively hopeful this time around. Of course, the last time they designed for the experienced, we got Cataclysm, so maybe that's not such a good thing.)


The thing is their are whole bunch of other choices for the players that feel Feral is too complex. For the players that liked the complexity I am not aware of any choices that will be left.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Cantor (Shredable) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:18 am

teddabear wrote:
Alaron wrote:
I think this hits the nail on the head for where Blizzard is going. There's a design decision in there as to how much of a space you want between a skill floor and skill ceiling - too little, and the expert players complain about not having anything to do; too much, and the new players give up too quickly. Speaking of the entire playerbase, Feral's main problem has been its complexity (or perceived complexity, which amounts to the same thing). As such, my expectation is for the initial class mechanics to be fairly bland, and for the complexity to be added in via encounter scenarios, trinkets, and set bonuses. Once we see those, then we'll have a better idea of where we might be ending up.

(As a sidenote - my observation is that Blizzard tends to oscillate between designing for the casual and for the experienced, and MoP was definitely more casual-focused, so I'm relatively hopeful this time around. Of course, the last time they designed for the experienced, we got Cataclysm, so maybe that's not such a good thing.)


The thing is their are whole bunch of other choices for the players that feel Feral is too complex. For the players that liked the complexity I am not aware of any choices that will be left.

Lunar Inspiration + FoN will be somewhat complex – as Corv mentioned earlier, it gives 3 CP dumps (SR, FB, Rip), 3 DoTs (Rake, Thrash, MF) + a couple of cooldowns to watch (Berserk, FoN). Compare this to SotF and Savagery or Bloody Thrash, you lose either a CP dump or a DoT plus a cooldown. I agree that it won't be on the same level of complexity as currently with snapshots and DoC, but remember that this is an iterative process – all we know at the moment for sure is that snapshotting is going away.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ShmooDude » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:09 am

One quick thing to make sure everyone is taking into account for the discussion.

Crit rate is taking a pretty big hit next expansion. 10% crit is = ~12595.2 Agi (from gear, your base agi has no effect iirc). I have 13,567 Agi in CMs (ilvl 463). At my current gear with 9949 Crit Rating + the 15% base crit is a whopping 31.58% (another +5% from lotp for 36.58%) compared to the almost 60% I run in raids now. Granted this assumes that 5% base crit + 10% from passive will be applied to everyone but I feel that might be a pretty safe bet at this point. Right now we have a much higher naked crit chance than the other agility users at 7.56 from agility. My hunter has -1.36% crit chance and my rogue has -0.12%. Yes, both start with crit penalty that has to be overcome. My 86 ele shaman has a 3.10% crit chance naked. The druid is Worgen (racial already taken out), the Hunter is Human, the Rogue is Dwarf and the Shaman is Draenei, unsure if that matters or not.

Anyhow, back to the original point which is that we're going to have much lower combo point generation than we do now, maybe even worse than we started with this expansion, unless some other change to CP generation is made. This needs to be taken into account for any "theorycrafting" of the level 100 talents.

For snicks, I ran myself through simc basic rotation in both my current gear and T16 Heroic sample balance gear. This was the fastest way I could think of to try to remove agility from the equation. Despite the boomkin gear having more energy (RPS 16.6 vs 16.3) Ferocious bites dropped from 1/17.51 seconds to 1/26.85 seconds. Rip uptime also dropped from 95.8% to 92.8%. Crit rate seemed to be ~35%-40% (with abilities being 35ish and dot ticks + white hits being 40ish, kinda weird) which is maybe even a little high for WoD unless we end up stacking crit as our secondary.

EDIT: 1% from worgen racial, duh!

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:43 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Lunar Inspiration + FoN will be somewhat complex – as Corv mentioned earlier, it gives 3 CP dumps (SR, FB, Rip), 3 DoTs (Rake, Thrash, MF) + a couple of cooldowns to watch (Berserk, FoN). Compare this to SotF and Savagery or Bloody Thrash, you lose either a CP dump or a DoT plus a cooldown. I agree that it won't be on the same level of complexity as currently with snapshots and DoC, but remember that this is an iterative process – all we know at the moment for sure is that snapshotting is going away.

I wouldn't be so fast to put FoN in there as useful off the bat. With Snapshotting gone (and Rune as well) they will lose out. As it is they are only a minor boost. On top of that we always struggle a bit with our early Crit with entry level gear which will make SotF likely the go to talent early on.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:49 pm

I would still rather like to see a merger of our CC trees, and then transform the earlier of the two into a third throughput tier, which instead includes savagery (which would additionally improve the effect of savage roar), but also doc, and lunar inspiration, and then the level 100 tier reserved for more interesting choices, like a dot snapshotting talent, or something like shadowpriests have, to convert a lot of damage allocation from dots to direct, and then something else - maybe bloody thrash.

The problem is blizzard doesn't WANT to give us snapshotting, even if it were left up to our decision. Snapshotting is tough to balance.

Also, might of ursoc and hibernate can kick the can, and soothe and faerie fire should be merged (or potentially both removed!)

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Corv » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:08 am

I see several issues with those proposals. It would lead to a spec-wide loss of control abilities. It places DoC on a tier with LI and Savagery, which mandates a replacement in the "hybrid" tier and offers the "choice" of selecting two hybrid talents in scenarios that it might prove effective. Removing snapshotting in general, while implementing it for a subset of one spec, is probably non-trivial in a technical sense. The idea seems founded on the surety that the L100 tier as presented does not offer interesting gameplay, and on a disinterest in at least half of the CC options presented in those two tiers.

Your opinions are your own, but I simply do not understand where you are coming from. Ditto Might of Ursoc, and I fail to see any reason to merge Soothe with Faerie Fire.

I'll agree with you on Hibernate, though. I suspected we might have seen it merged with Entangling Roots in some way in the cutting of button bloat.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:01 am

soothe and faerie fire should be merged (or potentially both removed!)


Well, Soothe should be removed, if Enrage is removed. If not, then Soothe should be castable in forms, leading to Ferals being more hybrid (the 3 other healing hybrids don't have to change stance to cast utility or healing spells).

Also, might of ursoc and hibernate can kick the can


Remove Might of Ursoc? No thanks. It allows us to emergency-tank and/or survive if healers fail. It's also a great PvP talent. Hibernate? Well, right now it's 1 of 2 CC-abilities we can cast instantly. It also completely shuts down the target (roots doesn't do that). I could also see roots and hibernate merged - the problem being how to do that without making another polymorph.

The problem is blizzard doesn't WANT to give us snapshotting, even if it were left up to our decision. Snapshotting is tough to balance.


Some of us (believe it or not) don't like dot snap-shotting. And no, it's not because we think it's too hard or we just want everything to be easy-mode. It's because it leads to conservative gameplay (promotes ressource-pooling and target-tunnelling), instead of a more aggressive gameplay, where multiple threats and targets are seen as an opportunity instead of an inconveniance.

Hullaballoonatic, when I read your posts in this thread, I see your vision of the Feral spec as one in which there should be an elaborate dps-cycle - and that being able to execute that cycle should distinguish the "good" Feral from the "bad" Feral. I think you're not alone in this vision.

But I disagree. Fulfilling that vision to its conclusion would lead to a one-dimensional gameplay experience. Most of the justification for such a Feral would come from raw dps statistics - but the gameplay would be dull. I'd much rather see a Feral with healing and CC abilities - and we should be able to use most of these without shifting out of our forms.

Feral is a spec in the Druid class - and Druids are true hybrids. If Blizzard followed your vision, it would just lead to one more dps spec. That would be boring for the game and for us Ferals.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Corv » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:42 am

Whitepaw wrote:It's because it leads to conservative gameplay (promotes ressource-pooling and target-tunnelling), instead of a more aggressive gameplay, where multiple threats and targets are seen as an opportunity instead of an inconveniance.


Would you care to elaborate on this point? I think that conservative gameplay and managing resources (of any form: attention, energy, CP, CDs, procs, etc) complement encounters that offer multiple objectives, allowing you to better handle adds and the twists of execution. I would assign "aggressive" to the tunnel-visioned player who lacks the capacity to handle anything outside of their rotation.

More than just the choice of words, why do you think pooling resources is a bad practice? Why would you think that additional targets might be seen as an inconvenience? Why should threats be considered opportunities?

Whitepaw wrote:Remember, Feral is a spec in the Druid class - and Druids are true hybrids. If Blizzard followed your vision, it would just lead to one more dps spec. That would be boring for the game and for us Ferals.


And while I'm here, I still think that this is no longer true. The class as a whole can be classified as hybrid, but no individual character is truly hybrid in practice. We have, at best, the option of contributing weakly and inefficiently to other roles, or of using HotW to ease healing checks or star in the one-in-a-million wipe prevention fantasy.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:28 am

Would you care to elaborate on this point? I think that conservative gameplay and managing resources (of any form: attention, energy, CP, CDs, procs, etc) complement encounters that offer multiple objectives, allowing you to better handle adds and the twists of execution. I would assign "aggressive" to the tunnel-visioned player who lacks the capacity to handle anything outside of their rotation.


My point is that in order to maximize our dps, we often have to sit on combo-points, to the point where we waste combo-points because it's not cost-effective to use FB. Instead, it's more cost-effective to wait for procs (esp. trinket procs) to potentially gain a better Rip than the one currently on the target. Compare that to an Assassination rogue, who will just chose 1 of 2 finishers and continue the rotation. They have the same number of dps-relevant finishers, but better synergy (Envenom refreshes S&D).

This gets even worse when using DoC. Before activating PS, you pool energy in order to generate as many CP as possible in the 8 second window with PS. Then, you proc PS and quickly build the 5 CP you need for Rip. You have less than 8 seconds, because you need to cast HT before PS runs out. Therefore, having close to 100 energy before PS is up is really important. You only attain that by pooling energy.

Dot snap-shotting also punishes us on target-swaps. If you have to swap targets, you'll most likely leave the target with bleeds up. During travel-time and CP-buildup, you hope that your most bleed-buffing procs won't go up before you're able to apply the Rip - and if it does, it will NOT buff the Rip on your your previous target.

The playstyle of the above mentioned mechanics is to push Ferals towards a 1-target centric approach to the game. We tunnel. But while we do that, we constantly conserve ressources, sometimes to the point of wasting CP, because we seek the Perfect Rip (= as many buffs as possible on Rip when applying it). Having the CP on us helps a lot with target swapping, and removing snap-shotting will help even more. Then, we will not be balanced around that mechanic, but at the same time we will gain full value on all procs.

I'd much prefer to use my finishers and stay aggressive (maybe even on multiple targets), instead of tunneling on 1 target, waiting for the Perfect Rip.

And while I'm here, I still think that this is no longer true. The class as a whole can be classified as hybrid, but no individual character is truly hybrid in practice. We have, at best, the option of contributing weakly and inefficiently to other roles, or of using HotW to ease healing checks or star in the one-in-a-million wipe prevention fantasy.


Well, that's your opinion. In my opinion, we (in MoP) have the opportunity to contribute considerably as both tank and healer (with HotW). As I read the Rejuv and DoC changes, that flexibility will be even better in WoD (together with damage being dealt more incrementally, which makes Rejuv better). These are great changes, but they are also a reason why dot snap-shotting should go away: You can't free up GCDs, if you have to wait for procs to apply the Perfect Rip. Now, of course the changes should also lead to an extension of PS. It should go back to be 15 seconds, since we no longer gain either instant Cyclone or a damage buff.

Oh, while we're at it: Nerf NV. Remove the extra dps from it, please. We don't want to be balanced around it.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Cantor (Shredable) » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:54 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Lunar Inspiration + FoN will be somewhat complex – as Corv mentioned earlier, it gives 3 CP dumps (SR, FB, Rip), 3 DoTs (Rake, Thrash, MF) + a couple of cooldowns to watch (Berserk, FoN). Compare this to SotF and Savagery or Bloody Thrash, you lose either a CP dump or a DoT plus a cooldown. I agree that it won't be on the same level of complexity as currently with snapshots and DoC, but remember that this is an iterative process – all we know at the moment for sure is that snapshotting is going away.

I wouldn't be so fast to put FoN in there as useful off the bat. With Snapshotting gone (and Rune as well) they will lose out. As it is they are only a minor boost. On top of that we always struggle a bit with our early Crit with entry level gear which will make SotF likely the go to talent early on.

Yeah, I'm just working on the assumption that FoN may be viable, using it as an example for rotational complexity; personally I still use SotF, despite FoN being mathematically slightly ahead.

Whitepaw, I totally understand where you're coming from – I do feel that the current way the game and spec is working promotes single-target tunnel vision, and WoD will move away from that. There will still be an element of energy pooling to fit as many DD abilities into a trinket window as possible, but you won't be punished as much for not doing so. An ability that was suggested by Hullaballoonatic in his MMO Champ thread was to have an option on a talent row to retain the snapshotting-style complexity by making OoC a % damage increase, which may be a happy compromise, perhaps replacing Savagery. I can also see the benefits to moving Savagery earlier in the tree, but I don't know where that would be. Alternatively it could become a glyph with a reduced effect, along the lines of "SR is now passively applied but only increases your damage by 30%".

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:17 am

Whitepaw, I totally understand where you're coming from – I do feel that the current way the game and spec is working promotes single-target tunnel vision, and WoD will move away from that. There will still be an element of energy pooling to fit as many DD abilities into a trinket window as possible, but you won't be punished as much for not doing so. An ability that was suggested by Hullaballoonatic in his MMO Champ thread was to have an option on a talent row to retain the snapshotting-style complexity by making OoC a % damage increase, which may be a happy compromise, perhaps replacing Savagery. I can also see the benefits to moving Savagery earlier in the tree, but I don't know where that would be. Alternatively it could become a glyph with a reduced effect, along the lines of "SR is now passively applied but only increases your damage by 30%".


I agree, energy and CP awareness should definitely be required to achieve optimal dps.

I don't dislike the Savagery talent as such - I just feel it's a bit boring as a talent. However, the gameplay implications (together with the CP change) could be quite far-reaching. Feral could become the new God of Cleave! This would have potential in both PvE and PvP. I always saw SR as a ramp-up of our dps, and that has reached an almost grotesque level in MoP (40%!). Having a talent so I could completely disregard that mechanic would be awesome. A more subtle solution would be revert SR back to only affecting auto-attacks, but Blizzard probably don't want to do that. However, if they did revert SR, I would be all for replacing Savagery with something more interesting.

PS: Yes, I am aware that reverting SR would indirectly buff Guardian cat-dps. I'd like that to happen, bear-catting should be viable and since Blizzard has axed the 10-man progression raiding, bear-catting should be viable.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:07 am

My vision of feral is to be a deep spec with lots of options to really distinguish a great player from a good player. The talent tree (and glyphs) are the best way to offer that kind of choice, as players like aggixx, tinder, and stenhaldi would choose a talent of twice the complexity for marginal dps gain (assuming no other factors), because they're skilled enough make use of it, whereas I would simply because I appreciate the challenge.

In regards to Soothe, I am, of course, a fan of its removal, as the enrage dispel mechanism in this game is just boring, but that does require an across-the-board systems change, that I'm not sure we will see happen. On top of this, as Sten pointed out, soothe is the only enrage dispel that is ONLY an enrage dispel. Ergo it would be nice to see it merged with our other long range debuffing ability, faerie fire, especially now that we won't be filling our spare gcds with FF as much anymore now that we have rejuv.

Though we are losing symbiosis, I still don't see much of a place for might in our bag of tricks. The 4 different survival cooldown buttons we have in 5.4 is just far too many, when these can be consolidated, and I argue that two is the right amount. Of all of them, Might of Ursoc is my least favorite, because it tends be used in reaction instead of proactively. Also, it's the most easily cut, since predatory swiftness (which will no longer be used for dps gain), rejuv, and renewal offer similar effects toward your survival.

Also, I don't mind losing some CC, and there's room in the major glyph department to fit in some. One suggestion being removal of mighty bash, but a glyph to alter maim to behave similarly. Another to remove mass entanglement, and a glyph that gives roots an aoe effect but with a cooldown. It could be done. Ultimately, you wouldn't be losing any CC, and have the option of actually gaining some in such a system, but these are just ideas. Not perfect by any means.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:18 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Yeah, I'm just working on the assumption that FoN may be viable, using it as an example for rotational complexity; personally I still use SotF, despite FoN being mathematically slightly ahead.

Personally I think FoN is pretty much the least compelling the an active talent choice can be. The fact that it's completely detached from the rest of the feral's rotation is pretty dumb.

I don't want to take complex talents just for the sake of complexity, I want to take them because it makes it more fun to play, which FoN completely fails to do for me. I don't think it would be very difficult to fix that either, you could just do something like change the applied rakes to last 10 seconds, and then add "When the druid generates a combo point from the target, the Treant's Rake is extended by 1 second."

And obviously that's just one idea. I'm sure there's several other things you could do that would encourage you to slightly alter you normal rotation to facillitate it, without significantly changing the talent's power.

Whitepaw wrote:I don't dislike the Savagery talent as such - I just feel it's a bit boring as a talent. However, the gameplay implications (together with the CP change) could be quite far-reaching. Feral could become the new God of Cleave! This would have potential in both PvE and PvP. I always saw SR as a ramp-up of our dps, and that has reached an almost grotesque level in MoP (40%!). Having a talent so I could completely disregard that mechanic would be awesome. A more subtle solution would be revert SR back to only affecting auto-attacks, but Blizzard probably don't want to do that. However, if they did revert SR, I would be all for replacing Savagery with something more interesting.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but if anything is going to make us gods of cleave it's going to be Bloody Thrash, not Savagery.

Also, SR isn't really what I would call a rampup mechanic, at least not in PvE. As long as you've got high combat uptime on something it's trivial to maintain the buff, and if you're looking to burst at a specific time that's not an issue either since you have the ability to apply a long Savage Roar more or less any time you want.

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I was thinking about Savagery last night and how to fix my issues with it. I ended up deciding that I would much prefer the talent if they instead made permanent Savage Roar baseline, and then changed the Savagery talent to be the current baseline, but at a higher percent physical damage increase. This way it would be a complexity opt-in rather than an opt-out. Of course the drawback to this is that this clearly dumbs down the other 2 options, but Lunar Inspiration already increases complexity, so that's fine, and if Bloody Thrash is tuned to be a small (but inferior) DPS gain then you still have your "simple" option in the tier. So basically:

Cat form now also increases physical damage dealt by x% (baseline).
Lunar Inspiration: No changes. Total 2 finishers, 2 CP gen DoTs + Thrash.
Bloody Thrash: Reduce energy cost of Thrash (if needed; in addition to current behavior). 2 Finishers, 1 CP gen DoT.
Savage Roar (rename from Savagery): Cat Form no longer increases phys damage dealt, grants Savage Roar ability which increases phys damage by x+y%. 3 Finishers, 1 CP gen DoT + Thrash.

I've be very interested to hear other's opinions on this idea.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Paloro » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:22 pm

So what you're saying is basically just remove SR from everyone and then turn Savagery into a passive lvl100 talent? *If you forget the cat form damage increase
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:12 pm

For that idea to work the Savage Roar talent would need to be noticeably higher in damage output then the other two to justify it's existence. If it just did on par damage with the other just having Savage Roar by itself offers nothing really interesting vs having extra capabilities and flexibility the other two talents offer.

I think what made DoC so appealing was not that it existed for challenge sake alone (it didn't). It offered a possibility of higher over all damage for taking on the risk of doing less damage for sloppy play. It wasn't the end all be all talent for all fights, cause some favored HotW. But it was a choice to change game play for better results. Just having Savage Roar isn't really interesting because we have had it all along, and it's not really that hard to do.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:14 pm

Paloro wrote:So what you're saying is basically just remove SR from everyone and then turn Savagery into a passive lvl100 talent? *If you forget the cat form damage increase

He is suggesting adding SR's current effect as a passive for cat form. Then change the level 100 talent to give you Savage Roar back and it will ignore the cat passive if you pick the talent.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:38 pm

1 target = single target
2-3 targets = cleave
> 3 targets = AoE

What I meant was this:
You have 3 targets, Savagery chosen as talent.
You start on target 1, apply Rip and extend with Shred to get full duration.
You then move to target 2, do the same (CPs stays on you, so no loss of CPs).
You now move to target 3, rinse - repeat and back to target 1.

If targets are fairly close to each other, you should be able to get 3 x Rip up at the same time. This should be possible due to CPs sticking on you (thereby allowing you to extend the Rip without CP loss) and because no CPs are lost to keep SR up.

Bloody Thrash is more of an AoE talent - and it might even end up being the best AoE talent in game. But for cleave-fights, multiple Rips seem to gain more dps.

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