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Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:15 pm

I think you are comparing our combo point generation and energy regen with todays gear. Opening of the expansion we won't have enough crit or haste unless something changes to keep that going on 2 mobs outside of Berserk.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:45 pm

Whitepaw wrote:But for cleave-fights, multiple Rips seem to gain more dps.

That would be your opinion. The truth is, neither you nor I have a sufficient idea about WoD to say for sure which is superior.

Considering you'd be maintaining Thrash in that situation regardless, Bloody Thrash lets you maintain Rake on all 3 targets for free in addition to granting your free combo points. You can multi-Rip with Bloody Thrash exactly like you said, just slightly less effectively since some CP goes into Savage Roar. Remember that we'll be Swiping on 3 targets in Warlords of Draenor, which cuts into your ability to multi-Rip and in turn emphasizing the other portions of damage breakdown.

Also consider that Bloody Thrash grants you massive incidental DPS; you can maintain the entirety of your normal damage on a target while keeping Rake and Thrash on an infinite number of additional targets for free.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:19 am

Tinderhoof wrote:For that idea to work the Savage Roar talent would need to be noticeably higher in damage output then the other two to justify it's existence. If it just did on par damage with the other just having Savage Roar by itself offers nothing really interesting vs having extra capabilities and flexibility the other two talents offer.

Yeah, that's pretty much my view as well. Bloody Thrash and Lunar Inspiration each offer a different option for dealing with multiple targets. Savage roar doesn't, so for it to be ever worth using, it would have to be "the single-target option" of the tier. I think that makes the choice less fun, because whenever you're deciding whether to take a versatility option, you'll have to ask yourself whether it's worth giving up the single-target damage.

To be fair, there's also a balance consideration in play. If our cleave capabilities are fine without the level 100 talents, then asking us to give up single-target damage to take them is fair. But if our cleave capabilities are not fine (as is the case in 5.4), then we should get that versatility choice "for free" and not have to give up single-target damage.

Generally I think the choice between Lunar Inspiration and Bloody Thrash looks to be a very interesting one, especially if they end up being fairly close in single-target damage. You get to choose between the two canonical forms of multi-target damage: "cleave" and "multi-dot". With that in mind, I'm more or less fine with the level 100 tier as it is. It works well even with only two viable talents.

Certainly, if we had three viable talents all with interesting niches, then that would be even better. But what should the third talent's niche be?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:37 am

But what should the third talent's niche be?


Obviously, snapshotting!

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Corv » Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:33 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I think what made DoC so appealing was not that it existed for challenge sake alone (it didn't). It offered a possibility of higher over all damage for taking on the risk of doing less damage for sloppy play.

It also encouraged PvE druids to actually pay attention to Predatory Swiftness. Rather than being merely the "instant Cyclone" effect that you'd rarely use in a raid, there was reason to divert some GCDs to tossing heals. You could take the easier route and macro them into self-casts, or run a mouseover macro and contribute splash healing to the raid if you had the attention to spare.

That sounds a lot like a pro-hybrid argument I'd expect from Whitehoof, but I think the supposedly pro-hybrid change in 6.0 works against that goal. DoC worked towards that end in Mists because we contributed to the healers' role in a totally incidental fashion. It did not step outside of Feral so much as it directly complemented our role, while offering a happy side-effect we could optimize. It was much like a Holy Paladin casting Holy Shock to generate Holy Power. The basic action would happen regardless, simply for the sake of throughput and in-role performance: the druid would cast HT, the paladin Shock. But the druid can choose to target a wounded player rather than blindly macroing it to self, and the paladin can in periods of light damage divert that cast into some DPS. These out-role effects tend towards insignificance, but still offer an opportunity to excel.

The Warlords version of Dream of Cenarius is simply a throughput buff to a healing spell. It's analogous to a Holy Shock that nukes a hostile target without generating Holy Power. It might now be a more effective tool for that purpose, but that purpose is unrelated to the role the player is in. It demands extra consideration without measurable return on that investment. Mists' DoC gave you the option of dabbling in healing, with the capacity to improve your throughput*. Warlords' DoC gives you the option of dabbling in healing, with the capacity to decrease your throughput. I find it deeply unsatisfying that any talent offers strictly "less-than or equal" performance.

* See here and here for indications that snapshotless DoC play is within the bounds of expected DPS

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Corv » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:21 am

Tinderhoof wrote:For that idea to work the Savage Roar talent would need to be noticeably higher in damage output then the other two to justify it's existence. If it just did on par damage with the other just having Savage Roar by itself offers nothing really interesting vs having extra capabilities and flexibility the other two talents offer.


Can the point of Savagery be precisely that it doesn't offer something interesting? Take a look at the comments on Wowhead's calculator. Every comment about Savage Roar is negative (some of the pre-Alpha comments use the talent's older name, Might of Malorne). Yes, contented parties don't speak up, but there is clearly a segment of players who enjoy the spec and want it simpler. That the few of us, here on a small fansite, with histories covering the best part of a decade, will possibly never choose the talent has little bearing on whether the talent is a good design. Design serves a much larger audience.

Hell, Celestalon even said that the selection of complexity was the point of these talents.

It could be made more "interesting," more powerful. It could directly buff Savage Roar. It could buff Ferocious Bite instead, accomplishing much the same goal and perhaps shifting its worth on a multi-DoT Council fight where you might sustain multiple Rips during execute. As long as it's near the strength of the other options in a single-target fight, it still registers as viable.

Stenhaldi wrote:Bloody Thrash and Lunar Inspiration each offer a different option for dealing with multiple targets. Savage roar doesn't, so for it to be ever worth using, it would have to be "the single-target option" of the tier. I think that makes the choice less fun, because whenever you're deciding whether to take a versatility option, you'll have to ask yourself whether it's worth giving up the single-target damage.


I don't so easily see how Lunar Inspiration lends itself to a particular AoE scenario. Even if I accept that it and BT are the clear AoE options and come at the cost of single-target DPS, well, as a wise man once said...

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:50 am

Dream of Cenarius isn't a hybrid talent in 5.4. Indeed, it's practically the opposite: it subverts your hybrid capabilities for damage gain. You can already cast healing touch without Dream of Cenarius; there's no reason not to cast it, but also (for damage purposes) no reason to cast it at any particular time. This means you're free to cast it whenever someone needs healing.

With 5.4 Dream of Cenarius, on the other hand, you need to cast healing touch at very precise times in your rotation, which greatly limits its utility as a heal. You can't save it for when someone needs healing -- the best you can do is to twitch your cursor to an injured raid frame at the point when you need to cast it. And that's if you're diligent. The timing requirement on healing touch is tight enough that one could be forgiven for opting to avoid any interruption and just macro it to cast on self.

---
Corv wrote:Even if I accept that it and BT are the clear AoE options and come at the cost of single-target DPS, well, as a wise man once said...

Did you read the subsequent paragraph?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:17 pm

I agree, Sten. They should add splash healing to the HT from DoC. And let PS last for 15-20 seconds.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:13 pm

Making PS last longer will not do anything. Unless you are off the boss you will have completed another finisher with in 15 seconds. If you haven't used it by then you are just over writing it.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:47 pm

Can the point of Savagery be precisely that it doesn't offer something interesting? Take a look at the comments on Wowhead's calculator. Every comment about Savage Roar is negative (some of the pre-Alpha comments use the talent's older name, Might of Malorne). Yes, contented parties don't speak up, but there is clearly a segment of players who enjoy the spec and want it simpler. That the few of us, here on a small fansite, with histories covering the best part of a decade, will possibly never choose the talent has little bearing on whether the talent is a good design. Design serves a much larger audience.

I believe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was giving feedback on Aggixx's suggestion about making Savage Roar baseline and having the Savagery talent give SR back.

I agree that just because some people don't like something doesn't mean it's a bad design. I would also say that just because there is something so good everyone takes it is good design either. Take the Cat Form glyph. Everyone uses it because the bonus is too good not to take. However it's a terrible glyph design that GC acknowledged didn't work. In the end Savagery is a poorly designed talent. It's a trap that will suck in people who don't like SR. There seems to be a misconception that it will free up combo points to do so much more damage and that isn't the case. So ya a talent that gives an incorrect perception to people is a poorly designed one.

I think some of the problem is that Savage Roar is a boring design. It does make the rotation more challenging, but no one is excited to cast it because the effect is uninteresting. That I think is what causes the perception issue that Savagery is hiding behind. It is harder, but it never feels like a pay off to push it, so when you do it wrong it only feels like a penalty. Now the big old buffed Rip I cast when I get that perfect timing of both trinkets and a TF that is exciting to push.

Pie in the sky I would find something for SR to do to make people feel good about pushing it. However I don't think that Ferals are on the table for a full redesign that it would likely take. So I am trying to be realistic in what the design is likely to be and try to focus on the stuff I think I have the best shot at changing through feedback. I love playing Feral. We aren't perfect but it's still my favorite spec and I will keep playing it, and I will try to keep making it better.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:49 pm

hullaballoonatic wrote:
But what should the third talent's niche be?


Obviously, snapshotting!

While I appreciate your enthusiasm on the issue I think it's time to realize that Snapshotting is the Ex Girlfriend. She has moved on and we won't be dating her again. Time for us to move on too.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:21 pm

That's exactly how I feel about SR. And the 'interesting' part of the mechanic is that it's 40%(!) of our damage. The closest ability is S&D, which is not nearly 40% - and Envenom refreshes it.

In PvE, it's an inconvenience - in PvP, it's like driving with your handbrake pulled most of the time.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Elamari » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:56 pm

hullaballoonatic wrote:Also, might of ursoc and hibernate can kick the can, and soothe and faerie fire should be merged (or potentially both removed!)

hullaballoonatic wrote:In regards to Soothe, I am, of course, a fan of its removal, as the enrage dispel mechanism in this game is just boring, but that does require an across-the-board systems change, that I'm not sure we will see happen. On top of this, as Sten pointed out, soothe is the only enrage dispel that is ONLY an enrage dispel. Ergo it would be nice to see it merged with our other long range debuffing ability, faerie fire, especially now that we won't be filling our spare gcds with FF as much anymore now that we have rejuv.
I don't think Faerie Fire and Soothe should be merged as they are two different abilities - 1 is a debuff applied to the target, the other is essentially a dispell. Merging it with Remove Corruption, our other dispell seems more likely to me. It would reduce button bloat and allow Druids to keep the spell without too much impact on game mechanics as they stand currently. However I’m unsure if such an elegant solution is available for Hunters and Rogues.

Whitepaw wrote:
soothe and faerie fire should be merged (or potentially both removed!)

Well, Soothe should be removed, if Enrage is removed. If not, then Soothe should be castable in forms, leading to Ferals being more hybrid (the 3 other healing hybrids don't have to change stance to cast utility or healing spells).
I agree that Soothe should be able to be cast in form. I think that the design of having to unshift / change stances to cast certain spells is a relic that doesn't fit in the current game - to an extent. Soothe is instant cast and the enrage mechanic is not used very often in PVE so why not allow Druid's to cast it in form? AFAIK Soothe is more important / used more frequently in PVP. I'm not sure what the impacts would be of an Soothe cast in form. If Boomkins can cast it in form, then I feel that Feral / Guardian should be able to as well. Warriors would probably cry if this happened.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:26 pm

Elamari wrote:I don't think Faerie Fire and Soothe should be merged as they are two different abilities - 1 is a debuff applied to the target, the other is essentially a dispell. Merging it with Remove Corruption, our other dispell seems more likely to me. It would reduce button bloat and allow Druids to keep the spell without too much impact on game mechanics as they stand currently. However I’m unsure if such an elegant solution is available for Hunters and Rogues.

The point is that hunters and rogues already have their enrage dispel merged into another ability. For rogues it's shiv, which they also use to force-apply (a stronger version of) their utility poison. For hunters it's tranquilizing shot, which is also an offensive magic dispel.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Elamari » Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:23 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:The point is that hunters and rogues already have their enrage dispel merged into another ability. For rogues it's shiv, which they also use to force-apply (a stronger version of) their utility poison. For hunters it's tranquilizing shot, which is also an offensive magic dispel.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that these classes used their spells more frequently, I was just looking at enrage dispel (I don't play rogue or hunter). That said, doesn't this only strengthen the point that Soothe should be merged? It seems odd to me that this was passed over during the button bloat cull.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:45 am

either FF or remove corruption are reasonable candidates for merging to me.

i'm actually somewhat surprised at the amount of dedication to might of ursoc. the ability has some niche uses that are cool, like upping your healthpool to soak a shot for a tank, but that's exceptionally rare, and can be accomplished in a number of other ways. I feel like there's just so much overlap when it comes to MoU, either the tankiness or the healing aspect, and having so many barely differing (in gameplay usage) survival cooldowns seems like a bad answer to problem to me.

Although, I suppose with nine lives, feral might be able to lose barkskin instead, but I prefer barkskin's proactive gameplay to might's mostly reactionary gameplay.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:40 pm

Arielle brought it to my attention that WoWHead is showing that the Cat From Glyph and Glyph of 9 Lives are mutually exclusive. Still poorly designed, but thankfully not 2 required slots. I knew they wouldn't allow both.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:38 pm

Tinder, the point of having PS at 15 seconds was actually that we would overwrite it - that is, it would always be up! That way, we would be able to decide when to heal, and not be forced by a dps rotation (like now) or a very short proc length.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Cantor (Shredable) » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:49 pm

It basically means we drop from 2 required slots as we have today (I'm aware that not everyone uses Savagery but the vast majority do so) to 1 for Cat Form or Nine Lives, with 2 free. I'd still prefer a little more choice however - glyphs shouldn't be this strong; they are pure survival glyphs that are so potent that any raider would be foolish not to use them. Options like Dash, Survival Instincts, Shred and Stampeding Roar are all much more in-keeping with the glyph system, as they are more utility-based and have applications that are more circumstantial (high movement? Dash and Stamp Roar. Spinny boss? Shred. High bursty damage? Survival Instincts), rather than this is ALWAYS going to be good. There is no time that I wouldn't want to be using one of the aforementioned survivability glyphs.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:06 pm

Whitepaw wrote:Tinder, the point of having PS at 15 seconds was actually that we would overwrite it - that is, it would always be up! That way, we would be able to decide when to heal, and not be forced by a dps rotation (like now) or a very short proc length.

8 seconds is more then enough time to use a heal or not. It won't be rotationally required at all. If you need a heal you can use it right away. If you don't then don't use it. Because we don't have to wait for anything extending the PS time won't really make it interesting. Always having a proc up isn't strategic or fun.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Elamari » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:10 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:It basically means we drop from 2 required slots as we have today (I'm aware that not everyone uses Savagery but the vast majority do so) to 1 for Cat Form or Nine Lives, with 2 free. I'd still prefer a little more choice however - glyphs shouldn't be this strong; they are pure survival glyphs that are so potent that any raider would be foolish not to use them. Options like Dash, Survival Instincts, Shred and Stampeding Roar are all much more in-keeping with the glyph system, as they are more utility-based and have applications that are more circumstantial (high movement? Dash and Stamp Roar. Spinny boss? Shred. High bursty damage? Survival Instincts), rather than this is ALWAYS going to be good. There is no time that I wouldn't want to be using one of the aforementioned survivability glyphs.

Agree with the design intent. Pure survival glyphs are always going to be take precedence.

RE: Glyph of Shred - Positioning requirements are being removed so I think the Glyph of Shred may be removed / modified.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:44 pm

I think the glyph exclusivity makes me like our glyph situation even less than live. Obviously choice in DR vs increased healing is just plain better, but the fact that they would bother to do that instead of just making it baseline already frustrates me. Not only do we have a locked glyph slot, but it's almost like they acknowledged we do and said "yeah that's fine. Here, we'll make it even more locked for you."
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:59 pm

It's an unusual situation for glyphs, but it doesn't really bother me. I mean, it's at least an interesting choice and we still have two glyph slots.

I guess the alternative would be to make the 20% healing a base effect and have a glyph remove that in exchange for the 10% damage reduction. Or vice versa.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:39 am

Yeah, I think that would be a much more sensible solution. It's not like we're going to get some significant increase in character power from having 1 more free glyph slot, it's just the principle of it.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:25 am

How important are such things anyways? Are they reasonable distinctions between specs? They're relatively universal regardless. One would think you could just eliminate all things like this or if not somehow make them more distinct of the spec. in some ways glyph of cat played off our somewhat unique powerful melee hybrid healing, but a flat damage reduction? that's just boring.

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