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Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Zstriker » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:31 am

I bet those later dmg increase is for the loss of RoR trinket and snapshotting to bring bleeds to it's current values, that trinket is going to be kinda useless in pre-expansion patch 6.x, with not be able to reforge and some unpredictable stat change on gear, in that case I was thinking need to get paws on smth else
but still as they buffing bleeds, that a chance they will still be most of our dmg

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:03 am

Tinderhoof wrote:SimC is worthless right now. The data being pulled from the alpha servers is incorrect. Celestalon spent several tweets telling Hina that today. Stop running them till we actually get something half way real to work with.

I'm pretty sure you're taking those tweets out of context. Nowhere did he say that the datamined information was incorrect, the comment about Readiness was Hina making estimate of coefficients that currently do not exist based off the live cooldown reduction trinkets.

I (and hopefully anyone else who reads this should) understand that the alpha means that the numbers datamined are temporary and could be radically changed overnight into something not even remotely resembling the original, but that does not mean that what is datamined is not the current state of their "work in progress".

Also, I didn't sim any of the newly datamined changes, I'm just extrapolating from what I already know from the sims I did a week or two ago.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:09 am

i guess one way to make us value hast is to make shred just do so much damage we will want to spam it more.

30-40% more from live doesnt close the gap between snapshotting vs no snap shotting I'd be willing to bet.

Question with the current alpha snapshotting model for tiger's fury. It will be best to just let that rip fall off for damage right and not reapply to early? With a 30 second tiger's fury that seems like it will be hard to make sure to apply a new rip on every tiger's fury. Might make readiness a decent stat for us if we could stack it so much we got Tiger's fury CD to match Rip's Duration. would be like a pseudo haste in that it will give us more energy as well.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:06 am

Tremnen wrote:Question with the current alpha snapshotting model for tiger's fury. It will be best to just let that rip fall off for damage right and not reapply to early? With a 30 second tiger's fury that seems like it will be hard to make sure to apply a new rip on every tiger's fury. Might make readiness a decent stat for us if we could stack it so much we got Tiger's fury CD to match Rip's Duration. would be like a pseudo haste in that it will give us more energy as well.

No, it's not really any different of a system than Cataclysm, you'll still want to maintain Rip, 30% Pandemic makes that an especially easy choice. But yes, in theory you could get enough readiness to have TF Rip up a high enough %age of the time where it's not worth trying to fill that small gap of downtime, but at that point you're probably not far off from 100% uptime anyway.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:36 am

i assumed when we extended a rip with pandemic that it would not extend wether it was originally cast with a Tiger's fury or not. meaning with no CDR we would be Rip with TF, Reapply rip when it falls off 22 seconds later. Then reapply rip with TF 8 seconds later. repeat the process. If you get enough CDR to make TF have 8 less seconds of cooldown then you could reapply rip on every TF. But if when you extend the rip it also extends the fact that it was snapshotted on TF to begin with then it makes all of this moot.

edit: Thinking about this more if there were multiple targets but one wasnt as important assuming rip extensions will still work like they currently do you could just sred to extend your first TF rip target swap cast rip swap back and shred to rextend the original rip since combo points will now be on us and not the target. theoretically you might be able to keep a rip going forever depending on your haste levels aslong as there are more than 1 target.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:23 am

Tremnen wrote:i assumed when we extended a rip with pandemic that it would not extend wether it was originally cast with a Tiger's fury or not. meaning with no CDR we would be Rip with TF, Reapply rip when it falls off 22 seconds later. Then reapply rip with TF 8 seconds later. repeat the process. If you get enough CDR to make TF have 8 less seconds of cooldown then you could reapply rip on every TF. But if when you extend the rip it also extends the fact that it was snapshotted on TF to begin with then it makes all of this moot.

Reapplying Rip will resnapshot your damage multiplier, just like on live. My point was that 12 ticks for 115% damage is not better than 15 ticks for any amount of damage. Even at 100% per tick its still more damage and realistically it would be more like 110%. This isn't any different then it was in Cataclysm when we maintained Rip 100% so I don't know why things would be any different.

Tremnen wrote:edit: Thinking about this more if there were multiple targets but one wasnt as important assuming rip extensions will still work like they currently do you could just sred to extend your first TF rip target swap cast rip swap back and shred to rextend the original rip since combo points will now be on us and not the target. theoretically you might be able to keep a rip going forever depending on your haste levels aslong as there are more than 1 target.

You definitely couldn't keep it going forever but you could get quite the extra time on it.

Edit: Actually if you stacked tons of haste and readiness it might be possible. I only said it wasn't because there was a bug that essentially allowed this behavior in 4.1 but that was when readiness wasn't a thing, but we also don't have Mangle now so that makes it a little harder.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:51 am

the goal would be to extend it 8 more seconds. or have the extension + Cooldown reduction of TF = 8 seconds.

so basically

TF RIP
Extend 3 shreds (22 second TF RIP)

Target swap rip (16 second rip 3 extensions)

Target swap back
Extend TF RIP to 28 seconds(3 cp on druid)

Get to 5 CP and apply new TF rip.

Assuming you could get 2 seconds off the CD of TF easily you could have 100% uptime of TF rip on a primary target. Not sure if I want to keep talking about this on public forums tbh lol seems really good with more haste you could theoretically keep a normal rip on one target and a TF rip on a primary target full time? This would be easier with no SR buff talent obviously.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:27 pm

Tremnen wrote:the goal would be to extend it 8 more seconds. or have the extension + Cooldown reduction of TF = 8 seconds.

so basically

TF RIP
Extend 3 shreds (22 second TF RIP)

Target swap rip (16 second rip 3 extensions)

Target swap back
Extend TF RIP to 28 seconds(3 cp on druid)

Get to 5 CP and apply new TF rip.

Assuming you could get 2 seconds off the CD of TF easily you could have 100% uptime of TF rip on a primary target. Not sure if I want to keep talking about this on public forums tbh lol seems really good with more haste you could theoretically keep a normal rip on one target and a TF rip on a primary target full time? This would be easier with no SR buff talent obviously.


Uhm, what makes you think that the rip extension mechanic isn't tied to each rip? Its not you get 3 extensions everytime you cast rip. Its each rip can be extended 3 times. If its not (servers are down so can't test atm), then I can guarantee you that's a bug and probably shouldn't be relied upon as they may fix it.



Back to the topic of TF rip. I think uptime on this will potentially be very high due to the pandemic mechanic even without readiness. Look at our rip/tf rotation on a single target

0s TF cast
0s-22s TF-Rip
22s-34s Rip
30s TF cast
34s-60.8s TF-Rip (obviously exact time you'll put up the new rip will vary, I just put it at 32 seconds for this example).

So for every minute, we have upto 48 seconds TF-Rip and as low as 12 seconds normal rip. This of course assumes you're able to maintain those Rip casts at the right times (wtb anticipation, lol). It will probably end up being more like 45/15 or a 75% uptime in TF buffed Rip but that's still a really high amount that readiness will only lessen. Also we're actually not clipping Rip that early with this rotation either as 3 rip casts would normally give you 66 seconds of Rip. 36-37% readiness will probably be our golden number as that lowers TF to 22 seconds. Whether this will be a feasible amount to get on gear, no one knows yet. :) Next readiness "break point" would be TF at 15 seconds but that's 100% readiness and I rather doubt they'll let us have values that high though.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:09 pm

aggixx wrote:I'm pretty sure you're taking those tweets out of context. Nowhere did he say that the datamined information was incorrect, the comment about Readiness was Hina making estimate of coefficients that currently do not exist based off the live cooldown reduction trinkets.

I (and hopefully anyone else who reads this should) understand that the alpha means that the numbers datamined are temporary and could be radically changed overnight into something not even remotely resembling the original, but that does not mean that what is datamined is not the current state of their "work in progress".

Also, I didn't sim any of the newly datamined changes, I'm just extrapolating from what I already know from the sims I did a week or two ago.

Celestalon ‏@Celestalon · 20h
@Hinalover Estimates based on junk data are junk data.

While I know he was being specific about readiness as a stat, it still holds true. Trying to run any SimC data on partial info (IE not knowing how new secondary stats affect us) is useless. We also don't know what any of the new stats will look like so trying to run partial new info vs live data is less then useful. People will take any information you produce and think it gospel.

I will change my tune a little when they open it up to the friends and family (very soon I hope) and we actually get to see some interactions. Even then I expect that it will be too early to give a picture of anything other then how the rotation works or doesn't work.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:18 pm

ShmooDude wrote:
Tremnen wrote:the goal would be to extend it 8 more seconds. or have the extension + Cooldown reduction of TF = 8 seconds.

so basically

TF RIP
Extend 3 shreds (22 second TF RIP)

Target swap rip (16 second rip 3 extensions)

Target swap back
Extend TF RIP to 28 seconds(3 cp on druid)

Get to 5 CP and apply new TF rip.

Assuming you could get 2 seconds off the CD of TF easily you could have 100% uptime of TF rip on a primary target. Not sure if I want to keep talking about this on public forums tbh lol seems really good with more haste you could theoretically keep a normal rip on one target and a TF rip on a primary target full time? This would be easier with no SR buff talent obviously.


Uhm, what makes you think that the rip extension mechanic isn't tied to each rip? Its not you get 3 extensions everytime you cast rip. Its each rip can be extended 3 times. If its not (servers are down so can't test atm), then I can guarantee you that's a bug and probably shouldn't be relied upon as they may fix it.



Back to the topic of TF rip. I think uptime on this will potentially be very high due to the pandemic mechanic even without readiness. Look at our rip/tf rotation on a single target

0s TF cast
0s-22s TF-Rip
22s-34s Rip
30s TF cast
34s-60.8s TF-Rip (obviously exact time you'll put up the new rip will vary, I just put it at 32 seconds for this example).

So for every minute, we have upto 48 seconds TF-Rip and as low as 12 seconds normal rip. This of course assumes you're able to maintain those Rip casts at the right times (wtb anticipation, lol). It will probably end up being more like 45/15 or a 75% uptime in TF buffed Rip but that's still a really high amount that readiness will only lessen. Also we're actually not clipping Rip that early with this rotation either as 3 rip casts would normally give you 66 seconds of Rip. 36-37% readiness will probably be our golden number as that lowers TF to 22 seconds. Whether this will be a feasible amount to get on gear, no one knows yet. :) Next readiness "break point" would be TF at 15 seconds but that's 100% readiness and I rather doubt they'll let us have values that high though.


Rip extensions havent been tied to the individual RIP since Wrath or BC not sure when. at this point its a feature.

but you can easily get 100% uptime on TF rip if you have 2 targets and just recast rip when TF comes on cooldown assuming you can get 2 seconds off the cooldown of TF with readiness. I have no idea how feasible that will be at the beginning of the expansion though.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:03 pm

Tremnen wrote:Rip extensions havent been tied to the individual RIP since Wrath or BC not sure when. at this point its a feature.

but you can easily get 100% uptime on TF rip if you have 2 targets and just recast rip when TF comes on cooldown assuming you can get 2 seconds off the cooldown of TF with readiness. I have no idea how feasible that will be at the beginning of the expansion though.


Hmm, weird, though just because they haven't fixed it doesn't mean its not a bug. It says a maximum of 6 seconds, not 6 seconds each time you cast rip. It probably wasn't worth it given our hugely limited target switching capabilities currently. It may still not be worth it given the limited amount it can really be used for. I mean for that matter Rip's duration extension is buggy as well, adding 2 seconds + whatever time is left to the next tick instead of just the 2 seconds like its supposed to. That said, with everyone getting "pandemic" I could easily see one or both of these changing as the fundamental refresh mechanics are changing.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:37 pm

also assuming they remove rip extensions for different rips wouldnt it be more benificial to just

5cp rip (no TF)
5cp rip (with TF) (28.6 seconds long)
inorder to pandemic chain this 28.6 second rip forever you would need the 22 second TF right? 36% CDRR is 10% less than we have on our current gear from AoC so it seems feasible to hit it in tier 18 or 19.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:21 pm

With 8-second TF and 4.8-second "free refresh" period, you could (with no readiness)

- rip at the beginning of TF;
- rip at the end of TF;
- then at next TF, rip only once;
- repeat.

This should result in 100% uptime of TF-buffed rip, at the cost of casting an extra rip every 1/(3/60-1/24) = 120 seconds. That assumes rip still lasts ~24 seconds. If it's fixed to last 22, then you'd need 5.6% readiness to do this, in which case it costs an extra rip every 1/(3/56.8-1/22) = 136 seconds.

Note that without casting any extra rips, the ideal mean TF-buffed rip fraction would be about 12.8/30 = 43% (scaling with readiness), since every 30 seconds, there's an 8-second (for TF duration) plus 4.8-second (for the free refresh period) period in which rip can expire to recast it with TF at no duration loss.

At current alpha damage values, ferocious bite, after subtracting the value of its extra energy cost (estimated as shred/2), does 11-14% as much damage as a 24-second rip (14% at low mastery/crit levels, decreasing as these stats go up). This means a ferocious bite every 120 seconds is worth at most 14%*24/120 = 2.8% the damage of a continuous (non-TF-buffed) rip. Meanwhile, gaining back the 57% missing uptime on TF-buffed rip is worth .57*.15 = 8.6% of the same damage -- meaning the above technique is worth it relative to not doing any early refreshes (but that's not to say there isn't another method that could be better).

Of course, the total benefit of doing this would be of order 1-2% overall damage. Maybe we should be lobbying to make the TF buff stronger.

[Edit: subtract the value of FB's extra energy cost. FB actually does 15-20% the damage of a 24-second rip, but costs more energy.]
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby trifrost » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:32 pm

With the new stats like multistrike and readiness appearing in WOD, will it be better if Savagery buff is changed from the current pure physical damage boosting to multistrike/readiness boosting?

This will change Savagery maintenance from compulsory to something that we want to keep the buff up as much as possible but still can be dropped from time to time.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:35 pm

Having Savage Roar buff a secondary stat of any kind would likely make us favor that stat over all others. This would go against the goal of having all stats viable. This happened previously during the first iteration of Savage Roar which buffed our AP by 30%. All Ferals did was stack Strength because it gave the most AP.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:24 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Trying to run any SimC data on partial info (IE not knowing how new secondary stats affect us) is useless. We also don't know what any of the new stats will look like so trying to run partial new info vs live data is less then useful. People will take any information you produce and think it gospel.

It is of limited use (as is any simulation, really) but I definitely wouldn't call it useless. Obviously it's not perfectly accurate, and it won't be until I or another adequately motivated SimC dev can get their hands on alpha or beta, but it's probably close enough that reasonable conclusions can be made on some more of the more overarching details.

I provide the information because I find it interesting and hopefully others do as well. I'm perfectly aware that the conclusions I have drawn from the simulations I have done so far may or may not be wildly inaccurate, but someone will inevitably misinterpret or take out of context any theorycrafting anyone ever posts. For now, I'm not providing any sim output because at this point in testing anyone who says "x is over/underpowered" is immediately discredited if they don't provide significant evidence, and I presume I can get away this because of my representation. If people don't put credit in what I say I don't care nor can I blame them, but as far as I'm concerned almost anyone else making statements like I am without evidence wouldn't get anywhere so I'm not too worried about spread of misinformation.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:36 am

Did we ever get confirmation if you can say apply a 1 cp ripp then appply a 5cp rip and get an extended duration?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:17 am

I don't think anyone has ever asked, but I don't see why not. I can't imagine it'd be terribly useful.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:26 pm

think about on the pull with our current tier of gear. could thrash (or pounce/ravage) tf beserk rake rip shred shred rip for an easy max duration TF rip. off the pull.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:56 pm

It only adds 30% duration to the end of the new Rip. That means you pay 30 energy and a combo point (maybe 2) for 2 extra ticks. Not likely worth the cost.

Also where is Savage Roar in that opener? The 0 combo point glyph will be gone at 6.0, and we won't have level 100 talents available if we are still using our current tier gear.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:30 pm

New Glyph of Savagery? And I think he meant with around the stats we have now not the gear specifically.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:53 pm

aggixx wrote:New Glyph of Savagery? And I think he meant with around the stats we have now not the gear specifically.

Seeing Thrash suggested as an opener was a bit confusing.

Tremnen wrote:think about on the pull with our current tier of gear.

The opening listed assumes 3 combo points after a TF.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tremnen » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:02 pm

Sorry forgot mid typing about the glyph change and didnt want to waste(as much as possible) the extra energy from the initial TF hence thrash. Pounce or ravage will probably be better come 6.0

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:08 pm

Ya likely in 6.0 our opener will call for stealth all the time. I still don't see the appeal of attempting to get 2 extra ticks from a TF'd Rip by wasting 2 combo points on the pull. It will less energy because of Berserk, but then you are also using up a GCD under Berserk which will just get over written.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby teddabear » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:56 am

Any news on how FB is doing relative to Rip with the latest change in AP scaling?

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