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Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:12 am

Alpheus wrote:I agree, the 90-level tier looks very unfinished with placeholders. Overall no big changes for feral complexity, however I'm very happy about the quality of life changes to AoE CP's, shrangle, prowl movement, rejuv, berserk etc. Bloody Thrash looks like it could become the go-to talent for most fights (even single-target if thrash maintains a reasonable coefficient).

I'm a bit sad about glyph of savage roar. On one hand it is a clutch requirement for PvE but is completely displaced by taking Savagery in T100.

The 100 talent for Savage Roar isn't going to be attractive for PVE. For PVP it makes a choice between not having to deal with SR or having ranged DoTs. If you choose the ranged dots the Glyph will be a great choice. If you take the talent the glyph isn't useful. Still all about choice. Now if only they could offer us some glyphs that didn't suck for PVE.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:14 am

That Dream of Cenarius note is nonsensical because the talent doesn't currently increase rejuvenation healing. Its only healing effect on live servers is to increase healing touch healing by 20%.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:18 am

Vularo wrote:Gylph of Savagery change: so the first ravage /pounce will be buffed by savage roar, or not? you leave prowl in the same momment as you hit the enemy, and in the same momment you gain a free 5cp savage roar.

Pretty sure the point of the glyph is so you don't have to do trickery to have Savage Roar and do a stealth opener. It will buff your opening attack. May not work at the start of Alpha but that is how we should expect it to work.

other question: Touch of elune and savage roar: does SR also increase dmg of Moonfire? does it give 2cp if it crits?
SR affects all our damage. If we can cast it in Cat SR will be needed. Also assume we will get 2 combos for crits.
disorienting roar: still breaks on bleeds?

Don't see why this would be any different. Assume it will still suck as bad as it does now.

EDIT: if we still have 70%bleed dmg /30direct dmg, why no dmg CD for bleeds?

yaya, alpha is alpha^^

I doubt we will see the damage spread look quite like it is now. With Rune gone and I am betting the 20% Rip buff we got in SoO leaving + the damage buffs to Shred and FB we will see our spread even out a bit. I would also expect SR will to back to 30% as they rebalance everything.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:22 am

Stenhaldi wrote:That Dream of Cenarius note is nonsensical because the talent doesn't currently increase rejuvenation healing. Its only healing effect on live servers is to increase healing touch healing by 20%.

Doesn't change my point any. We get a choice of a big long Raid cooldown, and single target on demand self heal, and a short burst aoe heal. I think the note was poorly worded because we can now cast rejuv in form and they didn't want it confused.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Vularo » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:25 am

i agree tinder.

problem is have with disorienting roar: we are a bleed spec, and if you try to cyclone someone you will always cast first disorienting roar into cyclone. so if roar breaks so fast, you often get kicked /silenced/stunned /whatever - it should be like dragons breath from fire mages. it only breaks from direct hits.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:42 am

Tinderhoof wrote:3. You assume that Thrash is going to apply the Thrash bleed AND the Rake bleed.

The datamined tooltip wording is pretty clear: "Thrash now also applies the Rake bleed effect..." Certainly it could change, but if we're discussing the level 100 talents at all at this point then we're using the datamined tooltips. It would also be very odd for this talent to remove the thrash bleed, as this would make it a damage loss in most scenarios (any but the most AoE-intensive of fights).

Not disputing your overall point -- we shouldn't be worrying about the overall strength of this talent relative to other classes at this point. Just noting that it's pretty clear, from the available information, that thrash will apply both the thrash and the rake bleeds.

Tinderhoof wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:That Dream of Cenarius note is nonsensical because the talent doesn't currently increase rejuvenation healing. Its only healing effect on live servers is to increase healing touch healing by 20%.

Doesn't change my point any. We get a choice of a big long Raid cooldown, and single target on demand self heal, and a short burst aoe heal. I think the note was poorly worded because we can now cast rejuv in form and they didn't want it confused.

Regardless, dream of cenarius in its proposed form is a talent that no one should ever take in any but the most pathological of scenarios. It's not a "single target on demand self heal". It's a modest boost to a weak heal you already have, coming at the cost of a powerful cooldown.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tubbilicious » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:51 am

Stenhaldi wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:3. You assume that Thrash is going to apply the Thrash bleed AND the Rake bleed.

The datamined tooltip wording is pretty clear: "Thrash now also applies the Rake bleed effect..."


The quote continues to say "to all damaged enemies". It does not specify whether or not we have to be the cause of the damage. Or what would happen if our thrash cast was the very first damage any particular mob would take - if hit by thrash first, then that mob wouldn't already be 'damaged'. As such, rake would not be applied. We probably shouldn't demand or read too much into the wording of a talent or ability - it's proven problematic in the past.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:04 am

Like I said, if we're talking about these talents at all then we're relying on the datamined wording. If you don't think it's accurate then there's nothing to talk about. On top of that, as I explained, the alternative interpretation of the talent defies not only the tooltip wording but also common sense with regard to the value of the talent: it would have negative value in most fights.

(Regardless, "damaged enemies" in this context almost certainly refers to enemies damaged by the thrash. Otherwise a range on the ability would have to be specified. Note that the "damaged enemies" and "healed allies" text also occurs in the chi explosion tooltip and its sensible interpretation is the same.)

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby raffy » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:05 am

With combos on the player, I wonder if we'll have a targetless generator (like Expel Harm.)

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:01 am

Note that if such a targetless combo point generator has a cooldown, then you end up with annoying pre-combat gameplay where you spend a long period of time before combat pressing that button on cooldown to cap your combo points (much like what windwalkers can do with expel harm).

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Karlzone » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:18 am

hullaballoonatic wrote:The good:

No symbiosis/Better SI
Shred changes
No damage in level 90 Talents.
Primal Fury changes


The bad

Abandoning Combo points to be just Holy Power/Chi/Rage
Still more defensive cooldowns than I feel Feral should have (not to be confused with needs)
Barely a prune in the number of abilities (-symbiosis, -mangle, +rejuv)
DoC functionality lost
No apparent intent to maintain feral depth/complexity; all changes thusfar make the spec significantly simpler
Level 100 talents are not good


Why??

Gylph of Savagery change
Pounce damage increase

I think you just summed it up for me (besides I was fine with dps in our T90 talents, but w/e). I would have been fine with a slight reduction in complexity, since I could just run DoC on all fights to keep having fun. ALL of these changes however are ridiculous. No way I'll stay feral for WoD if they don't reconsider these changes very hard.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby AsgardFM » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:30 am

Glyph of savagery, surely it's just now a pre-combat thing. Enter stealth when ready, exit stealth before pull to gain 41 sec SR then enter stealth for positioning and opener. Current wording doesn't care for combat, just leaving Prowl.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ShmooDude » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:02 am

hullaballoonatic wrote:Still more defensive cooldowns than I feel Feral should have (not to be confused with needs)


Can't really say I agree with this. A lot of melee have crazy strong defensive capabilities.

Rogues:
Feint - 50% AoE Damage and can be talented for an additional 30% DR, no CD but costs energy
Cloak of Shadows - Magic immunity and can be glyphed for 40% physical DR, 1 min CD
Evasion - 100% Dodge (there are many boss aoe mechanics that can be dodged), 2 min CD + Prep

Warriors:
Defensive Stance - 25% DR, usable at will but reduces damage done
Die by the Sword - 100% parry and 20% DR, 2 min CD
Shield Wall - 40% DR, 2 min CD
Enraged Regeneration - 10% health + 10% over 5 seconds, doubled while enraged, 1 min CD, talent

DKs and Enh shaman I'm less familiar with and I don't think they have as many ways to reduce damage as rogues/warriors do (the 2 best melee for PvE defensives/surv imo) so its really not out of line I don't feel. Though it could be argued that rogues/warriors should have less defensives vs buffing others. /jelly /grassisgreener :)

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:13 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Pretty sure the point of the glyph is so you don't have to do trickery to have Savage Roar and do a stealth opener. It will buff your opening attack. May not work at the start of Alpha but that is how we should expect it to work.

Really it should just be "When you leave stealth, you gain Savage Roar as if you had cast it with 5 combo points." Any other implementation is just pointlessly complex.

other question: Touch of elune and savage roar: does SR also increase dmg of Moonfire? does it give 2cp if it crits?

They'll just balance it around not being affected by SR if it doesn't. If anything we want it to not be affected by SR for this reason.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alaron » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:06 am

My thoughts (keep in mind I haven't played since the release of 5.4)

General Mechanics

Perks: Not a fan of the idea or its implementation. They're in as a way to (poorly) cover up that there's no new abilities this go-round. (Some of them would be great for leveling, too.) I'd much rather a design where you don't get every perk, you have to pick and choose, but then we have glyphs all over again and people complaining about having to switch perks for certain fights, etc.

Hit/Exp gone: While I'm not going to complain about this, I think the game suffers for it. A design where you choose between consistent but lower damage (hit/exp capped) or spiky but higher average damage (not capped) is better, IMO.

Professions no longer have a combat benefit: Surprised nobody mentioned this. Haven't read a lot of reaction, but I imagine that everyone who powerleveled an alt to 60 to get the vet bonus when boosting is slightly ticked.

Feral

Combo points on player instead of target: Definitely a good change if it sticks. One of the big reasons why feral is so hard to play well for new players.

Mangle gone, Swipe usable from all angles: Finally, only been calling for this since Cataclysm.

Symbiosis, Innervate gone: I think we all knew that was going to happen.

SI buffed massively: I imagine this will be toned down somewhat, as 24 sec of 70% DR probably trivializes some soft enrage machanics. I expect the Glyph will be changed as well; if not, easy (not best) tactic is to glyph it to 60s CD and macro to Barkskin.

Glyph of Savagery: This change makes the glyph seem less useful for PvE, as it has no benefit except as an opener. Incidentally, this means we're opening from Prowl. Synergizes well with Incarnation, I suppose.

DoC rotation gone: I'm going to go against the crowd here and be happy for this. While I like the idea of adding risk (difficulty) for reward (DPS), the DoC rotation was always a bit broken.

Rejuv in Cat Form: Have to think that it'll have an energy cost in Cat, to prevent spamming on free globals.

Overall, things will be easier for new players to get in and do well, so I'm mostly pleased at the changes. Interested to see if they put in a trinket that completely changes the class again like RoRo did.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:11 am

Laptop ran out of battery while I was making my comments. Round 2!

Stenhaldi wrote:Not disputing your overall point -- we shouldn't be worrying about the overall strength of this talent relative to other classes at this point. Just noting that it's pretty clear, from the available information, that thrash will apply both the thrash and the rake bleeds.

The previous tooltip indicated "spreads rake" not "applies rake" which strongly implied a Lava Lash-like mechanic (hence the uncertainty).

You can't always take wording for granted. For example, the same talent ("Bloody Thrash") also says "and awards 1 combo point if it strikes your current combo target" which is a direct copy of the wording from Swipe and does not actually make sense given the change to combo points.

That said, you're completely right; we should be discussing the changes in the context of the exact wording given to us with the understanding that they may change (whether if it's because the tooltip did not accurately describe what something does, or otherwise).

I feel like it's pretty stupid that they finally made swipe affected by Primal Fury, and at the same time made Thrash grant a CP but not affected by Primal Fury. Obviously 2 CP thrash would be very strong on single target (as if 1 CP & applying rake wasn't already good enough), but I don't think making the mistake of not applying Primal Fury to it is the right way to discourage that.

An interesting note is that the removal of DoC was almost necessary for them to change Bloody Thrash to work this way (otherwise you'd either have 1 GCD using up to 2 stacks, or 1 GCD that buffs 2 bleeds for 1 stack, and both would be quite clunky). Perhaps they wanted it to be like this all along but hadn't committed to changing DoC to allow it at the time.

I don't think using Thrash rotationally on single target as a sort of "mega rake" will cripple our energy usage in the beginning of the expansion, not even in the slightest. By the end of T14 we were already able to keep very respectable uptimes on Thrash on top of our other bleeds, and Warlords feral will have significantly reduced difficulty of (de)buff maintenance thanks to removal of snapshotting, 30% pandemic, "Critical Strikes" passive, and reduced TF cooldown (readiness!).

Alaron wrote:SI buffed massively: I imagine this will be toned down somewhat, as 24 sec of 70% DR probably trivializes some soft enrage machanics. I expect the Glyph will be changed as well; if not, easy (not best) tactic is to glyph it to 60s CD and macro to Barkskin.

Yeah the glyph is definitely going away if they're not totally crazy. I was talking to Tinder last night about how 24 seconds of 70% DR (and more because we still have Barkskin and MoU as well) on top of a DPS lossless Heart of the Wild means we'll be able to be a third tank for a good 20-30 second at least, and we'll be damn good at it.

--

The change to agility and addition of "Critical Strikes" passive seems like a small tweak in balance of racial power, assuming that their goal is have us start with a bit more crit and end with a bit less compared to current. The Worgen and Night Elf 1% crit racials will be a tad less potent at the beginning of the expansion and bit more powerful at the end, while the new Tauren crit damage racial will see the opposite effect (which while I'm a little sad about, it's needed. Tauren would've been so crazy OP at end of expansion!).

aggixx wrote:
  • Each point of Agility or Strength now grants 1 Attack Power (down from 2). All other sources of Attack Power now grant half as much as before.
  • Weapon Damage values on all weapons have been reduced by 20%.
  • Attack Power now increases Weapon Damage at a rate of 1 DPS per 3.5 Attack Power (up from 1 DPS per 14 Attack Power).
  • Attack Power, Spell Power, or Weapon Damage now affect the entire healing or damage throughput of player spells.

Does anyone actually understand what this means? Especially the bold part? Is it a poorly worded way of stating the removal of base damage, or is it saying that all abilities will scale off of both AP & Weapon Damage?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:02 am

Double posting 'cause important:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/4 ... 1901315072

Confirmation that bleeds will not scale with haste.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:10 pm

On the topic of survival cooldowns:

It's not that I'm saying feral could do without a number of cooldowns in the current meta. It is quite clear that we use all 3/4+ (depending on if you count tier 30 or hotw) to their utmost effectiveness. In WoD, we will a static 4+ (-symbiosis, +SI charge), so a rather similar net change for survivability but with missing utility like debuff clears/etc.

My point though instead is that I don't feel our 3 survival cooldown buttons play well: I think in a shifted raid fight meta, it would be a lot better if we instead had just barkskin + SI (and even that model is not immune of criticism), considering Might of Ursoc for feral is pretty much just an OH SHIT, and that can be equally handled with Predatory Swiftness (which is no longer a dps boost), Nature's Swiftness (if they give it back to us), or Renewal.




Oh, and for positional requirements, why are they so stubborn with this? It took them 1 week into release to realize they were a flawed mechanic, and 5 expansions to finally admit it (unless you count Mutilate), and they still haven't axed the whole thing. They realize they can just rename Backstab to Stab, right?



In terms of feral complexity, our spec's depth has been ENTIRELY neutered in three fel swoops:
No more DoC
No more snapshotting
Pandemic

But that's not all, that CPs stack on the player now removes a significant amount of the decision making that was offered to Feral Players, especially in multidot situations. If blizzard made every QoL improvement, the game would play itself. There has to be some decision making there, and CPs stacking on target made the feral/rogue approach to combat more intelligent.



It is clear blizzard is shifting our damage a bit back toward direct damage, and I'm actually not in favor of this. I am a long time feral, and I always felt the spec was in complete limbo of what it was supposed to be, and intended or not, by 5.4 it is very clear we are a dot spec. It has its problems, but I was rather hoping we would see other abilities be shifting to compensate for this new identity as we move into WoD (like berserk or FB changes), but instead Blizzard is backing away. It is clear with the haste/bleed mutual exclusiveness that Feral is going to end up in that limbo once again.

This is all merely my opinion, of course.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:25 pm

Ick. Haste give us more energy. Like that has worked out so well so far. I don't see them being able keep this balanced. To little and we hate haste like we do now, and to much we become gcd capped. Half assed if they are trying to make that work for warriors too.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby baver » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:33 pm

Have they told us anything about rip extended? If they dont remove that + combopoints is on ourself i think cleave on 3~ target could be realy fun and challenged.

I also hope they change Cenarion Ward to not be on gcd, maby even start to heal when you cast it and not when you take damage with a glypf. should also change renewal to 1min so ppl might pick it to some degree :)

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:45 pm

Important clarification. It seems our comb points will not be attached to us, but will shift from target to target as we change.
https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/452135276475711488
Not sure why this is unless they want to avoid having to make combo points expire like Chi/HP does. It will force us to pay attention and not be targeting a mob that is about to die, or we will only be able to use the combo points for SR. It doesn't feel like that would encourage good game play.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:05 pm

CP don't dissapear from a mob instantly when they die, I don't see what the issue is. Sounds like they're just kludging it instead of coding it to where the CP are *actually* on the player. They should be functionally identical unless you're regular killing mobs and then not changing targets until their corpse has already disappeared.

I have not the slightest idea why Lore would say that "they're hoping it will feel different." Maybe he's just uninformed?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:12 pm

aggixx wrote:CP don't dissapear from a mob instantly when they die, I don't see what the issue is. Sounds like they're just kludging it instead of coding it to where the CP are *actually* on the player. They should be functionally identical unless you're regular killing mobs and then not changing targets until their corpse has already disappeared.

I have not the slightest idea why Lore would say that "they're hoping it will feel different." Maybe he's just uninformed?

EDIT: Reworded.
Lots of summoned adds (lots of boss adds) that don't leave corpses lose their combo points as soon as they die. It has been happening since cata when we were able to use SR for combo points on dead targets. That is what I am getting at. You either have to swap off the target early or use SR right before they die. Encourages Ferals to leave early or risk losing the points.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:28 pm

If said summoned mob despawn when it dies, then yes. Otherwise I'm not sure that's the case. Honestly I've never really had an issue with it so if there is a problem it seems to me that its one that is easily amendable by a change in play style.

Positional requirement removed from Ravage:
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/4 ... 1170751488
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:30 pm

That is what I am getting at though. The change of Playstyle is what I don't think is a good thing. Encouraging you to leave early or risk your resource makes for poor team play in raids. May not actually change how fast the add dies, but it does not set a good example for the everyone else in the raid that see's you leave. Doesn't offer better game play, just gives a negative light on us for an unkown reason.

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