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Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:34 pm

I don't see how leaving a target 1 or 2 seconds before it dies is difficult or leaves a bad example. Obviously the ideal solution is for this not to be an issue.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:40 pm

And just as quick, combo points being on the target are just a Visual thing, not functionally different then Chi. Nothing to see here folks.
https://twitter.com/Tinderhoof/status/452153200947101696

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Sibylle » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:11 pm

Yay! I like the news better and better.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:08 pm

aggixx wrote:I feel like it's pretty stupid that they finally made swipe affected by Primal Fury, and at the same time made Thrash grant a CP but not affected by Primal Fury. Obviously 2 CP thrash would be very strong on single target (as if 1 CP & applying rake wasn't already good enough), but I don't think making the mistake of not applying Primal Fury to it is the right way to discourage that.

"Primal Fury now also grants a combo point for area attacks that critically strike the Druid's primary target."

Sounds like it should affect thrash (with bloody thrash) too. Wording even suggests it might make untalented thrash grant 1 CP on crit (instead of 0).

aggixx wrote:I don't think using Thrash rotationally on single target as a sort of "mega rake" will cripple our energy usage in the beginning of the expansion, not even in the slightest. By the end of T14 we were already able to keep very respectable uptimes on Thrash on top of our other bleeds, and Warlords feral will have significantly reduced difficulty of (de)buff maintenance thanks to removal of snapshotting, 30% pandemic, "Critical Strikes" passive, and reduced TF cooldown (readiness!).

Keep in mind "critical strikes" grants a lot less crit than agility would have. Even in tier 14 we would have had something like 25-30% crit before crit rating (these days it's 40%). Next expansion we'll have just 15% crit before crit rating.

Still, don't see the extra 15 energy every 15 seconds making that big of a difference.

aggixx wrote:
aggixx wrote:
  • Each point of Agility or Strength now grants 1 Attack Power (down from 2). All other sources of Attack Power now grant half as much as before.
  • Weapon Damage values on all weapons have been reduced by 20%.
  • Attack Power now increases Weapon Damage at a rate of 1 DPS per 3.5 Attack Power (up from 1 DPS per 14 Attack Power).
  • Attack Power, Spell Power, or Weapon Damage now affect the entire healing or damage throughput of player spells.

Does anyone actually understand what this means? Especially the bold part? Is it a poorly worded way of stating the removal of base damage, or is it saying that all abilities will scale off of both AP & Weapon Damage?

The use of "or" suggests that it's the former. That is, there are abilities that scale off attack power and there are abilities that scale off weapon damage; one or the other now affects the entire throughput.

Not sure what the other changes mean, but at face value they seem to be diminishing the relative value of your weapon's DPS by 60%? Weapon damage becomes 1/4 as effective relative to attack power per point, but then attack power is reduced by half and weapon damage is reduced by 20%, so the net effect is that your weapon's DPS will 40% as valuable (in terms of its contribution to total damage) as it is now.
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:16 pm

aggixx wrote:Double posting 'cause important:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/4 ... 1901315072

Confirmation that bleeds will not scale with haste.

Same nonsensical reasoning Ghostcrawler used 5 (edit: closer to 3) years ago. Yes, we get more resources from haste. So do casters, for whom "casting time" is their primary resource.

It's even worse now because for the few casters that do care about mana in their normal rotation, their passive mana regeneration scales with haste too! (arcane mage and destruction warlock)

Not saying bleeds should necessarily scale with haste. Just saying, if you're making them not scale with haste, don't give a justification that's patently ridiculous!

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alpheus » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:21 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:
aggixx wrote:Double posting 'cause important:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/4 ... 1901315072

Confirmation that bleeds will not scale with haste.

Same nonsensical reasoning Ghostcrawler used 5 (edit: closer to 3) years ago. Yes, we get more resources from haste. So do casters, for whom "casting time" is their primary resource.

It's even worse now because for the few casters that do care about mana in their normal rotation, their passive mana regeneration scales with haste too! (arcane mage and destruction warlock)

Not saying bleeds should necessarily scale with haste. Just saying, if you're making them not scale with haste, don't give a justification that's patently ridiculous!


And it's entirely false reasoning to begin with: justifying not scaling melee dots with haste because we get more resources would imply that said dots would have no or very limited impact on our dps and we should resort to direct damage energy spenders instead. This is in essence why haste was so rubbish for us for the past 2 expansions (high bleed coefficients)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:00 pm

So what in the world can Blizzard actually do to address feral's low value of haste as they said they would. I find it hard to believe they'll shift enough of our damage back to direct damage to make haste valuable, and even then you'll have haste and mastery working against each other (like they do now and have always done). The only way I can think of to address this is to allow feral bleeds to scale with haste, but since Blizzard has stated that's not their intent, I'm confused as hell. I was rather certain they were going to make that change.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ShmooDude » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:59 am

Alpheus wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:
aggixx wrote:Double posting 'cause important:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/4 ... 1901315072

Confirmation that bleeds will not scale with haste.

Same nonsensical reasoning Ghostcrawler used 5 (edit: closer to 3) years ago. Yes, we get more resources from haste. So do casters, for whom "casting time" is their primary resource.

It's even worse now because for the few casters that do care about mana in their normal rotation, their passive mana regeneration scales with haste too! (arcane mage and destruction warlock)

Not saying bleeds should necessarily scale with haste. Just saying, if you're making them not scale with haste, don't give a justification that's patently ridiculous!


And it's entirely false reasoning to begin with: justifying not scaling melee dots with haste because we get more resources would imply that said dots would have no or very limited impact on our dps and we should resort to direct damage energy spenders instead. This is in essence why haste was so rubbish for us for the past 2 expansions (high bleed coefficients)


Super simplified example: 1 min fight

Energy using melee uses 15 second duration DoT (40 energy) and DD (40 energy), nothing else:
4 applications of DoT costing 160 energy

0% haste = 11 uses of DD
20% haste = 14 uses of DD

Generic caster uses 15 sec duration DoT (4 second cast) and DD (4 second cast)
4 applications of DoT costing 4 casts (affected by haste)

0% haste = 11 casts of DD
20% haste = 14 casts of DD

Now obviously the real numbers don't look anything like this but at its core, Stenhaldi is correct, there is no difference between "energy" as a resource and "casting time" as a resource. Perhaps someone should tweet this to Celestalon and see what their response is.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:19 am

Glyph of the Shapemender - Each time you activate a shapeshift form, you are healed for $159454s1% of your maximum health.


This cannot possible condone interesting gameplay. Didn't this exist in MoP beta shortly back when shapeshifting out of roots was a level 90 talent and baked into that?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:17 am

Eh, don't think that's really an issue. I assume it'll trigger if you force-shift into the same form, so (for raiding purposes) it's mostly just a way to trade a GCD for some healing. Won't be overly useful for us since we have rejuv, nor for other specs since they don't have free GCDs.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby baver » Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:45 am

Wonder if if could procc after Might of Ursoc, would be kinda op if it procc after for some insane heal.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:06 am

Pretty interesting contender:
Glyph of Ursol's Defense - Increases your armor in Bear Form by an additional 210%.
I'm assuming that'll be restricted to non-guardians, since it's the same as the Thick Hide bonus (if I'm correct in interpreting "additional" to suggest additive stacking). At present gear levels and armor formula, that amounts to a 31-35% reduction in armor-mitigated damage relative to what bear form currently does. Will definitely make feral-spec (or even resto/balance) offtanking a lot more viable, especially coupled with the survival instincts change. Also helpful for soaking the rare armor-mitigated effect (like juggernaut mines or morchok stomp).

Of course, I can't not mention the obvious one.
Glyph of the Ninth Life - Reduces all damage taken while in Cat Form by 10%.
That, coupled with the glyph of cat form, makes for almost warlock-level passive defense.

---
For reference, the list of datamined feral glyphs (from mmo-champion):
Spoiler: show
  • Glyph of Ursol's Defense - Increases your armor in Bear Form by an additional 210%.
  • Glyph of the Ninth Life - Reduces all damage taken while in Cat Form by 10%.
  • Glyph of Maim - Increases the damage done by Maim by 100%.
  • Glyph of Travel - Travel Form grants an additional 60% movement speed, but can no longer be used while in combat. This effect is disabled in battlegrounds and arenas and cannot be combined with other temporary speed bonuses.

[Edit: removed the ones not usable by feral]
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:17 am

Oh, Shapemender is for balance and resto only. Ursol's Defense is balance/feral/resto.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alpheus » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:36 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Oh, Shapemender is for balance and resto only. Ursol's Defense is balance/feral/resto.


It's odd that they would give a shapeshifting glyph to our GCD-capped specs. I take it it's mostly meant for PvP then (ie. emergency bear -> convert mana to hp).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:24 am

Another thing that may be noteworthy:

If the PvP glove bonus remains the same (+100% maim damage), then at live coefficients and gear levels, glyphed maim with the glove bonus will do as much damage per energy at 1 CP as ferocious bite at 5 CP. (Of course, there's no reason to use maim above minimum combo points if you're going for damage.)

[For reference, maim on live does 2*(weapon damage + 196*CP + 82) damage before either bonus.]

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:55 am

Another quick musing:

Rejuvenation currently resets the swing timer when you cast it. Will it do so when cast in cat form?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alpheus » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:58 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Another quick musing:

Rejuvenation currently resets the swing timer when you cast it. Will it do so when cast in cat form?


That + it will trigger a 1.5sec GCD :P
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:15 pm

It only took me 8 months to get them to fix the HT 1.5 gcd for HT in form. Maybe it will be faster this time.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Sibylle » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:34 pm

Hmm, one thing strikes me as odd: Didn't they want to reduce ability bloat? They removed Mangle and Symb - only to make Pounce and now Maim potentially relevant. Ah well, at least I've got the two hotkeys ready.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:10 pm

They also removed Innervate.

Was hoping we'd see Tranquility go (along with all raid cooldowns for dps), motw made into a passive, hibernate bite the dust, and might of ursoc gone for feral.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alpheus » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:46 pm

They also removed most if not all defensive raid cooldowns from tanks and some classes already received new ones to compensate (mages, warriors). I wonder if we're also going to be seeing some or if this is going to be yet another clutch reason to underprioritize druids in raids. No new druid abilities data-mined so far.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

There won't be any new abilities. We had the second fewest abilities pruned of any class and most of those were useless anyway. It's pretty clear they are trying to get Pounce and Maim more active in the rotation. We aren't in the same boat as mages and warriors who actually needed stuff replaced.

I seriously hope that the Cat Form glyph is dead and baseline (more likely 9 lives replaced cat form). Having 2 glyphs like that together would be stupid and mandatory (again).

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Sibylle » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:44 pm

Oh, I don't mind it, it sounds interesting, I was just wondering because it seemed to run counter to their stated design goal.

Btw: Interesting interview that talks a lot about agility classes: Clicky!
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Steakbomb » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:03 pm

Hopefully a few of us will get into the Alpha/Beta sooner rather than later so we can start testing some of these changes and figure out how these changes will play since there is no NDA.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Moortyz » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:06 pm

New DoC... I dont really like this change. Something besides increased HT and rejuv would be nice.

Something like free feral ability, reduced cost of next 1 or 2 feral abilites by 50% after casting HT or something like that. (well, that's maybe too OP, but it's just idea)

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