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Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:14 pm

Actually Blizzard's DoC sounds fine if it buffs rejuv now (which it appears to do). We're going to be doing a pretty substantial amount of healing with rejuv.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Scryms » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:02 pm

It's kind of ok, especially with the removal of Tranq for ferals (https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/4 ... 8127534080) which makes HOTW kind of poor. NV looks like a pretty good option though.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:56 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:"Primal Fury now also grants a combo point for area attacks that critically strike the Druid's primary target."

Sounds like it should affect thrash (with bloody thrash) too. Wording even suggests it might make untalented thrash grant 1 CP on crit (instead of 0).

Ah, ok I failed at reading. For some reason I thought it just said Swipe.

Stenhaldi wrote:Actually Blizzard's DoC sounds fine if it buffs rejuv now (which it appears to do). We're going to be doing a pretty substantial amount of healing with rejuv.

Glad that their patch note on the matter tooootallly made sense. /sarcasm

I guess that's why Celestalon was like "I don't know why you guys think it's so terrible".
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Elamari » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:04 am

Tranquility is going to be resto only

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/452556998127534080
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:14 am

Why is hibernate still a thing? Why is soothe still a thing? Why do we still have hurricane as feral?

I'm surprised they didn't touch stampeding roar, despite it being easily one of the best and most unique raid cds, when they're clearly trying to tone down raid utility brought by dps classes across the board. Are they kind of trying to give it to other classes? Windwalkers now passively increase movement speed of allies in 10 yard range by 10%.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Elamari » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:32 am

hullaballoonatic wrote:Why is hibernate still a thing? Why is soothe still a thing? Why do we still have hurricane as feral?

^^ This! I wrote an a post about soothe / enrage dispells and how they are often forgotten / under used. I was thinking that all of these spells would be candidates for button bloat. Still nothing it final yet...

hullaballoonatic wrote:I'm surprised they didn't touch stampeding roar, despite it being easily one of the best and most unique raid cds, when they're clearly trying to tone down raid utility brought by dps classes across the board. Are they kind of trying to give it to other classes? Windwalkers now passively increase movement speed of allies in 10 yard range by 10%.

The thing with that annoys me with stampeding roar is that to make it useful you need to use the glyph to make the range 40 yards, which it should have by default as a RAID WIDE cool down. No news if this glyph will still exist yet.

The Mistweaver bonus is interesting to see how it stacks with all of our other movement speed increases. Currently Feline Swiftness + Cat Form + boot enchant = 155% run speed, + 2% from NE Quickness racial + 5% from Cat Form Perk + 10% from Mistweavers = who knows?!

Though the devs have mentioned that the number of enchants is getting reduced so maybe no more boot enchant and instead.... ENGINEERING PERKS FOR EVERYONE!

http://www.wowhead.com/news=233324/technical-game-designer-chadd-celestalon-nervig-talks-warlords-of-draenor

From the Interview with Celestalon and Zarhym;
"For items such as Engineering's Rocket Boots, where they provide a considerable benefit despite not being a direct throughput buff, the current plan is to let Rocket Boots and other things like Invisibility belts be something engineers can make and sell so everyone can have them."

BOO! I'm ok with professions not providing direct throughput but I want some exclusivity damn it! Why chose a profession otherwise?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:33 am

hullaballoonatic wrote:Windwalkers now passively increase movement speed of allies in 10 yard range by 10%.

Tangential, but this is kind of a poor way to address windwalker raid utility since it presumably won't stack with itself: you still won't want more than one windwalker.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:37 am

hullaballoonatic wrote:Why do we still have hurricane as feral?

Because they're leaving Heart of the Wild in the game, primarily.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:46 am

So heart of the wild loses some of its utility with the loss of tranq, but it might be noted that with the ability to cast rejuvenation in cat form, it'll be a lot less costly to use it for rejuv blanketing.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:51 am

Added the new glyphs.

Stenhaldi wrote:So heart of the wild loses some of its utility with the loss of tranq, but it might be noted that with the ability to cast rejuvenation in cat form, it'll be a lot less costly to use it for rejuv blanketing.

It also gains some utility with Ursol's Defense. If they don't remove the armor bonus from Heart of the Wild I believe that means we'll have more armor than a Guardian in Bear Form during it?

PS: I looked through the whole list of uncategorized spells that had level requirements and didn't find anything feral related.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alpheus » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:44 am

Moortyz wrote:New DoC... I dont really like this change. Something besides increased HT and rejuv would be nice.

Something like free feral ability, reduced cost of next 1 or 2 feral abilites by 50% after casting HT or something like that. (well, that's maybe too OP, but it's just idea)


They've explained in the blog post that they want Tier 6 (90) to be a utility tier and having both utility and performance in the same talent tier made people choose the performance one in most cases (well, doh). So they sacked all the performance-increasing stuff there (HotW, DoC) and it's purely an off-role tier now.

Perhaps HotW rejuv-blanketing is gonna be a thing now (funny cause they said they didn't want this kind of gameplay, even if it's from an off-spec cooldown).

Sadly this means that our T6 tier will no longer be a DPS vs AoE vs cooldown tier (at least as it was in early MoP) and they shifted that role into T7. I'm just confused why they're just repeating the same design choices they did in MoP as far as feral talent design is concerned. T7 is now identical to how T6 was layed out and it still matches T4 design: there's that one obvious PvP talent, there's the energy+aoe one and the die-hard performance talent.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:02 am

They did not say Rejuv blanketing was something they didn't want. They said they wanted it to be a viable style if folks like it. They did say that Rejuv blanketing was not going to be the optimal choice though, and it would be better to mix direct healing with smart use of Rejuv.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:07 am

And that's just for resto druids anyway. Kind of different when you're talking about a spec that doesn't even have other buttons to press.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alpheus » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:16 am

Tinderhoof wrote:They did not say Rejuv blanketing was something they didn't want. They said they wanted it to be a viable style if folks like it. They did say that Rejuv blanketing was not going to be the optimal choice though, and it would be better to mix direct healing with smart use of Rejuv.


My statement was far-fetched to begin with anyway since that particular expression was in reference to healer main specs. Still, early MoP has shown that having an OP one-button wonder from HotW is not attractive in a raid settings and all the other classes just QQ until it gets nerfed into oblivion. At that point we got stuck with HotW tranq which was used more in the later stages of the expansion.

I understand that they're removing tranq for non-restos. It's a one-off, volatile healing CD with an 8minute cooldown which required a full-stop on whatever you were doing and forced you to stand still (possibly even weapon swap). But why is HotW still following the same design in a healer/defensive context (6minute, requires active spells). Wouldn't it be better they paired it with all the other 3minute raid CDs?

Lets face it, there was never a boss fight during progression where the plan was "Ok, alpheus will tank the boss with hotw for 40 seconds!" or "all druids take HotW and AoE the adds down fast!". As far as the dps contexts are concerned, HotW was mostly used for creative meter whoring and the only "raid utility" it offered was when it was used in its healing context, ie. healers for stats, moonkins/ferals for tranq, sometimes rejuv (thok).

I just don't understand why druids need a "shapeshifting" talent in the performance/utility tier. I get it, we're not as hybrid-y as we used to be in vanilla/tbc but that's not gonna change unless they make the HotW offspec stronger than your baseline spec (ie. bear-weaving/wrath for dps, bear/cat healers for restos, going feral for boomkins).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:35 am

I'm not seeing how the early nerf to Heart of the Wild says anything about the concept of the talent. It was obviously overpowered at the time and needed to be brought down. It wasn't nerfed for its design; it was nerfed for its strength (relative to other classes and relative to other talents).

I general I think the concept behind the talent is perfectly fine. Even if it's only used for healing, it's our "stronger" healing cooldown option in that talent tier -- and keep in mind Blizzard isn't removing these entirely: rallying cry, smoke bomb, AMZ, and ancestral guidance are still available to damage dealers, only weakened. But aside from that, it definitely used to also be a common thing for resto druids to use it for damage (though perhaps not so much now that it's also a healing cooldown for resto -- this part of the design does confuse me). As far as its tank option goes, I will agree that this doesn't see much in raids, largely because it provides so much less mitigation than a normal tank. That would be an obvious thing to fix if Blizzard wants to see more use of that facet of the talent, but even if they don't, I still have no problem with the talent for its healing capabilities alone.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Alpheus » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:40 am

Stenhaldi wrote:I'm not seeing how the early nerf to Heart of the Wild says anything about the concept of the talent. It was obviously overpowered at the time and needed to be brought down. It wasn't nerfed for its design; it was nerfed for its strength (relative to other classes and relative to other talents).


I was referring to the blog post:

The level 90-Talent row for Druids was designed to encourage hybrid gameplay. We decided that, while you shouldn't have to give up a significant amount of your primary role throughput in order to gain the off-role benefit, you also don't need to gain an actual benefit to your primary role throughput benefit either. We've reduced the power of their primary role benefit, making them roughly neutral in their effect on your primary role. Note that the increase to off-role healing from Nature's Vigil is not actually a buff (see Healing and Player Health above).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:24 am

Something I assumed in writing my previous assessment, but neglected to mention explicitly, is that with the rejuvenation change, heart of the wild should no longer be viewed as something you need to sacrifice damage to take advantage of. Consider the comparison with dream of cenarius: you can take DoC to boost your heals by 20% all the time, or you can take HotW to boost your heals by 100% 1/8 of the time. The latter averages 5/8 the healing increase of the former, but offers much greater control over when you get it. Heart of the Wild, in this picture, is valuable even if you don't intend to stop damage to blanket rejuvenation. Stopping damage is just an option you have -- and since there's no more shifting, it's not even a binary option. You can cast how many heals you need to cast and continue your damage rotation in the remaining time.

Of course, it remains to be seen how Nature's Vigil will fit into this comparison.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:35 am

The problem I see at the moment is NV is still a DPS up while the other two aren't (well maybe hotw gimmick too).

Since we can heal in cat form, NV will provide a DPS increase. It won't necessarily be a significant one but I guess that all depends on how the rejuv thing works out.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:08 am

HotW can still be a DPS increase too, it's only DoC that can't.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:22 am

Even with hurricane staying in for hotw, presumably, can it really beat consistently spreading rake to enemies? That would some weird gameplay: constantly swapping in to spread rake and then swapping out to hurricane...

Either way, isn't hotw+wrath spam still a dps boost? either way this is against blizzard's philosophy to remove the dps components from that tier. in hotw, it's unavoidable unless they don't give non ferals and non balance specs feral-like and balance-like bonuses.

And on top of that, it's a throughput tier for restos anyways.

This design is far from perfect.

And finally, why isn't Blizzard giving us the weapon swapping prevention talent that they gave to enh, etc?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby teddabear » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:49 pm

I know it's a first pass but it was an extremely poor first pass as far as Feral is concerned. If Feral receives the same treatment as it has in recent expansions it will be unplayable when WoD goes live.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:59 pm

Blizzard uniformly dropped the skill ceiling of feral in attempts to simplify the game for balance purposes and presumably lower the skill floor, but they went much too far. They're sitting on top of glyphs and talents as means of offering the depth for skilled ferals but instead of providing us with additional method of accessing the complexity we love (like perhaps a dot snapshotting talent), they actually did the opposite by removing DoC. I'm so disappointed.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:47 pm

One random thought I had about adding some complexity back would be for Omen of Clarity to provide the snapshotting gameplay.

Something like:

Omen of Clarity no longer causes you to enter a Clearcasting state but instead increases your damage done by XX% for X seconds.

Would probably be a level 100 talent as I don't think all Ferals want this but I agree that something should be done who want the added complexity (I think that's what the moonfire talent is supposed to be but it might not be enough)

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:15 pm

Heh, you'd find the same idea in the mmo champ thread i made on things I want to see for feral in WoD. I can't really take credit for the idea, though, since I think stenhaldi provided that one for me. You'd have to additionally make a unique set of rules in RPPM for omen of clarity so it occurs consistently spaced out something like 3 times every minute instead of its consistent habit of procing 3 times in a row suddenly when its icd resets.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Zstriker » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:21 pm

Elamari wrote:
hullaballoonatic wrote:Why is hibernate still a thing? Why is soothe still a thing? Why do we still have hurricane as feral?

^^ This! I wrote an a post about soothe / enrage dispells and how they are often forgotten / under used. I was thinking that all of these spells would be candidates for button bloat. Still nothing it final yet...
hullaballoonatic wrote:I'm surprised they didn't touch stampeding roar, despite it being easily one of the best and most unique raid cds, when they're clearly trying to tone down raid utility brought by dps classes across the board. Are they kind of trying to give it to other classes? Windwalkers now passively increase movement speed of allies in 10 yard range by 10%.


because it's not ability bloat when you barely use them, but STILL USE...I don't have soothe,hebirnate, hurricane, tranqulity, roots, cyclone,Innervate, teleport to moonglade etc on active action bar, but I still have them and have a free keybinded space to put skill there which I need in exactly pve enviroment, so how they are bloat me if they are in my unlimited sized spell book

if they towned down raid utility, then they gonna town down boss mechanic, you want all patchwerk fights? 4expansion+vanilla=over 100+ bosses and u want all be same with different model, playing should be differently as game 10 years old, it should bring to players unpredictable challenges and be enjoyable

teddabear wrote:I know it's a first pass but it was an extremely poor first pass as far as Feral is concerned. If Feral receives the same treatment as it has in recent expansions it will be unplayable when WoD goes live.


recent expansions were great for ferals, they have valid raid and arena/bg spots, if you are so whiny and scared don't play it then, there 11 other classes with 3 spec each, go choose, thats message to all those cryers with radical changes they want to see. I play my feral long ago since tbc I saw bad times for that class spec, but now they are no longer acceptable to kitties and many more will be playing and top meters and ranks with their adorable faceripping creatures as they used to do

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