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6.1 Discussion

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Kittenmittons » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:54 pm

Reading this discussion makes me a feel a bit better about how I've felt "down" about our current situation. Commiserating is therapeutic. And seeing what's (not) on the horizon in 6.1, it's gotten me to thinking: What OTHER DPS class should I level if I want to feel like a god on a secondary character in a raid? I typically enjoy melee roles the most, but am not against (some) ranged.

Classes I have enjoyed in the past:
Melee - Enh shammy, rogue (all), Ret pally
Ranged - Lock (all), SPriest

So-so about - WW monk, DK, warrior
Dead set against playing - Mage/Hunter/Ele shammy/Boomkin

I'd like something that usually finds itself among the top 25% now in many fights and likely will once BRF drops.

I'm new, so if this isn't the place, I apologize, just tell me where to post and I'll be glad to do it. I didn't mean to hijack a thread.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Tremnen » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:55 pm

right now I'd probably play DK if I wanted to be a top dps melee in BRF. I like rake doing more damage than Rip. Makes our tab raking stronger and its far easier to maintain rake than rip so from a raiding standpoint I'd prefer to have that be the more damaging ability. From a design standpoint it does feel like you are putting all this effort into a finisher and not getting a lot out of it for Rip when you compare it to rake though.
Last edited by Tremnen on Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Tremnen » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:58 pm

TheLOOGE wrote:
Dwade wrote:Can only hope that they are taking a hard look at the data from raid testing on the ptr and make some proper adjustments to our spec.


Yeah, this was my thought as well. There must be internal data that they're looking at that leads them to believe we'll be in good shape. Would loooove to see this data but... ya.

Interestingly enough, Lore tweeted the other day on his personal account what I believe to have been a Freudian Slip if you will regarding Feral viability. "Ferals are pretty strong right now tho." Naturally, he immediately walked that back, mentioning that nothing he says on his personal account should be taken seriously. Perhaps he's right. Then again, after watching a lot of his content throughout the years, he strikes me as someone who has the propensity of being verbally clumsy. Like, the type of guy you wouldn't tell which girl (or guy) you had a crush on because they'd end up telling them "accidentally." Ergo, I have a hard time simply discarding it entirely, but that's just me personally.


he said this because I perform well in his guild usually top 5 dps on all fights. I also have had an ilvl advantage over most of the people in my raid group during all of our progression :/

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:31 pm

Tremnen wrote:
TheLOOGE wrote:
Dwade wrote:Can only hope that they are taking a hard look at the data from raid testing on the ptr and make some proper adjustments to our spec.


Yeah, this was my thought as well. There must be internal data that they're looking at that leads them to believe we'll be in good shape. Would loooove to see this data but... ya.

Interestingly enough, Lore tweeted the other day on his personal account what I believe to have been a Freudian Slip if you will regarding Feral viability. "Ferals are pretty strong right now tho." Naturally, he immediately walked that back, mentioning that nothing he says on his personal account should be taken seriously. Perhaps he's right. Then again, after watching a lot of his content throughout the years, he strikes me as someone who has the propensity of being verbally clumsy. Like, the type of guy you wouldn't tell which girl (or guy) you had a crush on because they'd end up telling them "accidentally." Ergo, I have a hard time simply discarding it entirely, but that's just me personally.


he said this because I perform well in his guild usually top 5 dps on all fights. I also have had an ilvl advantage over most of the people in my raid group during all of our progression :/


Pretty much same thing here. I was top DPS during progression, but primarily because I had high PR on EPGP and got a higher ilvl. Now that everyone else has caught up, its a different story.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Jinxs » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:19 pm

We just killed Tectus mythic and I never felt so useless looking at the logs.

It seems to me that devs are trying to make ferals as a single target class with high personal survivability. However, back in SoO there were almost no class that could compete with us on a boss like Norushen or Iron Juggernaut. Heck, we could even compete on Spoils of Pandaria or Fallen Protectors with other classes if we did everything right. Now however I feel that even if I squeeze everything the feral druid has to offer considering its AOE and do a complex target switching... its just a fraction of what moonkin has when he pushes the button that says "Starfall".

Anyone remember early WoD patch notes? "Thrash now also spreads Rake to other damaged enemies." It seems to me that they knew that AOE is going to be a problem for ferals. However they removed the ability before going live and I can't recall replacing it with anything suitable. Actualy there were zeroo changes since WoD launched.

I feel we are beign ignored and must somehow reach out to devs for a fix or there will be huge decline in feral numbers within Blackrock Foundry.

And just for the fun.. Blizzard developer interview about the druid feral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK1GKBTwyoo
Last edited by Jinxs on Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Polihayse » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:32 pm

What if Glyph of Stampeding Roar was removed? It would increase feral's utility for melee and it would be something that only feral could give.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Nayni » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:36 am

Polihayse wrote:What if Glyph of Stampeding Roar was removed? It would increase feral's utility for melee and it would be something that only feral could give.


Think that only takes away utility then increase it.

I would love to see them remove the requirement to have Predatory swiftness to be able to Rebirth instantly. It's instant baseline for Boomkin and Resto why not for Feral also? While they're at it, put it off the global too.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Polihayse » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:43 am

Has there been any kind of feedback from blizzard about the state of ferals at all?

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby inseedious » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:09 am

Jinxs wrote:Anyone remember early WoD patch notes? "Thrash now also spreads Rake to other damaged enemies." It seems to me that they knew that AOE is going to be a problem for ferals. However they removed the ability before going live and I can't recall replacing it with anything suitable.


That would be a nice fix. Honestly, these kind of fixes might seem too simple solutions to solve complex issues, and rarely end up being well balanced (usually OP). But, after all, I think all powerful AoE classes/specs just need to push one or two buttons for their AoE rotation (and don't forget that having to deal with energy is more difficult than just waiting for CDs). And we're talking about Rake, about 20% of our single target damage, being instantly spread, so to double up our dps we would need to have at least 8 target to deal with, also including damage of Trash and Swipe in the computation.

Or, better, thay can make this improved Trash a finishing movement for AoE only, since we often don't know how to spend CPs in AoE situations (especially when spamming Swipe), because both FB and Rip are usually irrilevant damage when fighting 4+ targets.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:07 am

I went ahead and went dual spec Feral/Boomkin. I bought the BoE off pieces and got a Heroic staff. Even though my trinkets by balance standards are bad (copelands/sandman's 1of3, which are about equal to normal HM trinkets), its still far superior for aoe fights. We just killed our first Mythic Tectus and I did ~48k DPS, which is way more than feral is even capable of on that fight (not to mention the ranged portion of that fight is so easy, f' those fractures in melee).

Granted, it took a lot of practice to get to the point where I could do decent damage at all for boomkin (not to mention a custom WA setup to simulate how Ovale works), but until feral gets an aoe buff, its fairly viable to pick up as an offspec as long as you can fill your off slots with decent items and can get a handle on the rotation.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby CowOwlCatBearStag » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:42 am

ShmooDude wrote:Granted, it took a lot of practice to get to the point where I could do decent damage at all for boomkin (not to mention a custom WA setup to simulate how Ovale works), but until feral gets an aoe buff, its fairly viable to pick up as an offspec as long as you can fill your off slots with decent items and can get a handle on the rotation.

Any chance of sharing your boomkin WA setup?

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:16 am

I, too, have ditched my Resto spec and gone Balance and have been experimenting with it. I've done a lot of target dummy time and some testing in normals and am probably slightly better than mediocre in terms of my rotation, but it still blows me away how much more damage I can do in AoE scenarios with virtually no effort.

/cast Starfall
/cast Sunfire

Hey, look, I'm doing double Feral damage! Sweet!

Big issue for me is getting a good weapon and filling in some of the additional slots. I was lucky to get a heroic ring and cloak recently to shore things up--which really just leaves my 645 neck/weapon lagging behind.

It bothers me that I feel like I should be doing this, as the gearing issues are really problematic. Swapping mid-raid also requires swapping flasks, which is a pretty big QoL issue. I enjoy playing Feral a lot more than Balance right now and feel like I have put in a lot of effort to play at a high level that basically gets thrown out the window.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby inseedious » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:18 am

ShmooDude wrote:I went ahead and went dual spec Feral/Boomkin. I bought the BoE off pieces and got a Heroic staff. Even though my trinkets by balance standards are bad (copelands/sandman's 1of3, which are about equal to normal HM trinkets), its still far superior for aoe fights. We just killed our first Mythic Tectus and I did ~48k DPS, which is way more than feral is even capable of on that fight (not to mention the ranged portion of that fight is so easy, f' those fractures in melee).

Granted, it took a lot of practice to get to the point where I could do decent damage at all for boomkin (not to mention a custom WA setup to simulate how Ovale works), but until feral gets an aoe buff, its fairly viable to pick up as an offspec as long as you can fill your off slots with decent items and can get a handle on the rotation.


That's what I was thinking about too. But, at some point, I changed my mind, because, after all, I guess my leader would just pick a more experienced Balance or any other AoE class, if there's need for a AoE damage. Especially for complex fights like M Imperator that we've been trying for the past weeks. For now, I'm waiting for some hotfixes, also because most of first Foundry bosses, like Oregorger, Grull, etc. are single target ones, so 6.1 might be released during or right after having done them in M. But if nothing will happen in, let's say, next two weeks (especially after the bad feedback Feral will give), I'll start thinking about a full switch to Balance for this tier, taking Feral pieces as off-spec, and building a BiS Feral set when all M bosses will be in farming, to eventually switch back to Feral if 6.2 will be more decent for us.

To me, it doesn't make a lot of sense to play both specs, it would result in less itemization for the whole raid and for ourselves, meaning that we'll probably rarely score above-average damage. But, on the other hand, despite usually enjoying difficult challenges like scoring top dps with weak/not so good specs, this time I have to choose between leaving my loved spec and leaving my main raider spot in my guild.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:56 am

CowOwlCatBearStag wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:Granted, it took a lot of practice to get to the point where I could do decent damage at all for boomkin (not to mention a custom WA setup to simulate how Ovale works), but until feral gets an aoe buff, its fairly viable to pick up as an offspec as long as you can fill your off slots with decent items and can get a handle on the rotation.

Any chance of sharing your boomkin WA setup?


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Some caveats.
Spoiler: show
1) It assumes you're euphoria, as its the best in pretty much all circumstances atm. I could make one for the other specs if it becomes worth it at some point.
2) Its designed to be used with Ovale + this
in "/ovale code" put this as a custom script. If you're already using ovale, you can simply paste the last line at the bottom of your current Ovale script and it'll work as well, which is what I did.
Code: Select all
Include(ovale_common)
Include(ovale_druid_spells)

AddIcon specialization=balance { if Enemies() > 2 and BuffExpires(starfall) Spell(starfall)  }

In "/ovale config" turn on Hide Empty Buttons, then position the Ovale icon over the Starsurge icon.
If you have 3 charges of Starsurge, then it will display over the Starfall icon (cause this is the only point on AoE fights you should use starsurge).
In all other cases, Starfall will cover up Starsurge if there's more than 2 enemies in the fight.

This is all done by using the Frame Strata setting in Weak Auras.

You don't necessarily have to have Ovale; if you're good with overriding your usage of Starsurge with Starfall on your own (during aoe you don't want to waste potential Starfall charges on Starsurge; only Starsurge if you're capped on charges).

I also really like this addon for my balance bar: Balance Power Tracker. It tells you about where your balance meter will land when your cast/gcd finishes.


inseedious wrote:That's what I was thinking about too. But, at some point, I changed my mind, because, after all, I guess my leader would just pick a more experienced Balance or any other AoE class, if there's need for a AoE damage. Especially for complex fights like M Imperator that we've been trying for the past weeks. For now, I'm waiting for some hotfixes, also because most of first Foundry bosses, like Oregorger, Grull, etc. are single target ones, so 6.1 might be released during or right after having done them in M. But if nothing will happen in, let's say, next two weeks (especially after the bad feedback Feral will give), I'll start thinking about a full switch to Balance for this tier, taking Feral pieces as off-spec, and building a BiS Feral set when all M bosses will be in farming, to eventually switch back to Feral if 6.2 will be more decent for us.

To me, it doesn't make a lot of sense to play both specs, it would result in less itemization for the whole raid and for ourselves, meaning that we'll probably rarely score above-average damage. But, on the other hand, despite usually enjoying difficult challenges like scoring top dps with weak/not so good specs, this time I have to choose between leaving my loved spec and leaving my main raider spot in my guild.


Yeah, I know what you mean. I was able to pick up the weapon (and a ring/cloak) without too much trouble due since we cleared H HM every week. We give Prio offspec to specs that may get used in raids (gearing up certain dps as off tanks and healers as dps usually) but that still means waiting till all the rest of the casters have theirs before I have a chance to see one. Thus why I still have crappy trinkets.

I'm actually kind of enjoying boomkin now that I've gotten used to it with a properly setup UI so seriously thinking of just going boomie for the rest of the tier then seeing what I want to do for 6.2.

Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:26 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Bizeh » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:35 am

inseedious wrote:
Jinxs wrote:Anyone remember early WoD patch notes? "Thrash now also spreads Rake to other damaged enemies." It seems to me that they knew that AOE is going to be a problem for ferals. However they removed the ability before going live and I can't recall replacing it with anything suitable.


That would be a nice fix. Honestly, these kind of fixes might seem too simple solutions to solve complex issues, and rarely end up being well balanced (usually OP). But, after all, I think all powerful AoE classes/specs just need to push one or two buttons for their AoE rotation (and don't forget that having to deal with energy is more difficult than just waiting for CDs). And we're talking about Rake, about 20% of our single target damage, being instantly spread, so to double up our dps we would need to have at least 8 target to deal with, also including damage of Trash and Swipe in the computation.

Or, better, thay can make this improved Trash a finishing movement for AoE only, since we often don't know how to spend CPs in AoE situations (especially when spamming Swipe), because both FB and Rip are usually irrilevant damage when fighting 4+ targets.


Hello,

I new here but maybe we can imagine this functionality would work only with Claws of Sirvalah. This would give a PvE viability for this lvl 100 talent. I don't know what would be the PvP impact of this change but I guess it is not OP.

BTW, I'm also a big fan of what Sten wrote about our situation, and I think the ideas for solving this are great and wise. And.. sorry for my England :)

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:59 pm

@Celestalon why not have moonfire dot scale w/mastery on lunar inspiration talent? Would make it interesting.

WarcraftDevs
‏@WarcraftDevs
@badaxiom It’s easy to miss this, but since it’s a spell DoT, it scales with Haste instead. Some talents encourage favoring different stats.


Really?

One talent doesn't encourage favoring different stats, it just makes the talent less valuable when it doesn't synergize with favored stats. This is a really strange line of thinking considering they are trying to make the talents more equally viable.

If an optional talent scales with our worst stat it is pretty much doomed to be mediocre.

I would also argue that considering we have way more haste right now than we will ever want once we have more choice of item pieces and it still isn't a great talent outside of a couple specific fights, the future is not bright for its scaling.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:50 pm

They aren't convinced Haste is a bad stat for us. I have done my best during the beta and recently to prove otherwise, but they remain unconvinced.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby TheLOOGE » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:36 am

Well the good news is Hans and Franz is still a really good fight for us!

/facepalm.

Can't wait for Blizzard to pull their collectives heads from their posteriors and get us back on track. First night in BRF tonight and it is no question as bad as we've been predicting.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby TheLOOGE » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:52 am

https://twitter.com/Kithrak_/status/562846847023464448

Can't tell if Coffee bird is trolling or if he took a super late lunch...

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:22 am

TheLOOGE wrote:https://twitter.com/Kithrak_/status/562846847023464448

Can't tell if Coffee bird is trolling or if he took a super late lunch...


CoffeeBird
‏@Kithrak_
@ocedy @TheLOOGE Let classes good at AoE burn stuff down and let me focus on single target burn boss, priority add, etc. divide and conquer.


Niiiice. I find that approach is super-effective on Tectus. :)
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Zstriker » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:11 pm

TheLOOGE wrote:https://twitter.com/Kithrak_/status/562846847023464448

Can't tell if Coffee bird is trolling or if he took a super late lunch...


well he is only one I know who have feral druid and play it for sure, but he is community manager not developer

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:45 pm

TheLOOGE wrote:Well the good news is Hans and Franz is still a really good fight for us!

/facepalm.

Can't wait for Blizzard to pull their collectives heads from their posteriors and get us back on track. First night in BRF tonight and it is no question as bad as we've been predicting.


I just got around to looking at the overall logs from yesterday. Looks like pretty much what we would have expected given the AoE situation. Decent on a couple easy fights but pretty much at the bottom of the rankings on the others.

Balance seems to be extremely strong.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Whitepaw » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:18 pm

TheLOOGE wrote:https://twitter.com/Kithrak_/status/562846847023464448

Can't tell if Coffee bird is trolling or if he took a super late lunch...


Neither - he has a point.

When you look at the individual logs for fights from Highmaul Mythic on World of Logs, you can see what he's hinting at. Take Ko'ragh Mythic, highest ranking in the world as I am writing this is a warrior (this is his log:http://worldoflogs.com/reports/6rvn6ushs0s38gca/details/4/?s=5359&e=5616). His dps is at 48565, he does 7331181 damage (59%) on the boss, the rest is on Volatile Anomaly (40%).

Now take a look at the highest ranking Feral on the same fight, his log is here: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/adcgugfasxbtqrjz/details/7/?s=8466&e=8745. His dps is only 37453, but he does 9220549 damage on the boss (88%) and the rest on Volatile Anomaly (9%). Granted the kill for the Feral lasted 22 seconds longer, but the difference on boss damage is a lot larger than can be explained by having the fight last 22 seconds longer.

If you take a look at Imperator, you get the same picture. Again, Ferals do well when looking at damage done on the boss, compared to other melee specs. This shows that Feral single target dps is also important in fights with multiple targets. It might not be on the no. 1 spot on dps logs, but doing most damage on the boss is rather important.

That being said, we do need a buff in AoE damage - the difference in AoE output is simply too large. But I hope this buff will allow us to keep our excellent single target damage, instead of necessitating a nerf to that so dps specs are kept balanced.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Starbreeze » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:31 pm

Do you not think that if the warrior ignored the adds and focused solely on the bosses like feral does that the difference you describe there would come way way down and may even flip a bit in the other direction?

No one is saying that our single target is bad. But warriors can do exactly the same and then aoe like champions if the need calls for it.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:45 pm

This argument leads to a slightly false economy, though.

If Ferals were better at AoE, AoE adds would die faster and other classes would be able to do more damage on the boss. Raid damage would likely be lower as well, leading to a higher chance of success of the fight.

It's one thing if a player is 'padding' by splashing to targets don't don't need to die or aren't really very important. However, in any instance where AoE targets need to die, the lack of being able to AoE them down is a massive detriment--regardless of our decent performance tunneling the boss.
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