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Quick Questions

Postby Pushypouncin » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:23 pm

Hey guys!
New to the forum and just had some questions. First off when is the best time to use TF? should I run out and FC then TF, Apply rake and rip, then ravage? Whats optimal? Secondly, should i be using pounce in my initial start? And lastly, should I be holding off any cd's in order to use them with Devour or Matrix Restabilized?

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Druidohorde » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:39 pm

Number one thing that a lot of Ferals forget about is ... the first few seconds of the fight is HUGE. You need to be smashing buttons hard and fast to get full use of all your GCDs. A lot of kitties turtle their way through the first rotation and coupled with bloodlust, or the haste from Feral Charge GCDs are being wasted.

A typical pull with bloodlust for me goes....

Prepot, Feral Charge in, Mangle+FF at the same time, rake, (I might Savage Roar here) shred a bunch of times while clicking ---> TF + Trinket + Berserk, RIP, then Ravage, shred, shred, shred, etc.

If you lag during that initial burst, and can't spam your buttons fast enough your dps will blow goats. If you're a mouse clicker - ouch.

Notice .... Mangle +FF happens together, at the same time.. not seperately. That means click them at the same time.... also... while you're shredding, spam your TF+Trinket+Berserk together... at the same time.. Doing this seperately = a dps loss cus of GCD lost obviously.

Otherwise, try to always lineup Trinket + TF, and Berserk if available.
With 4pc your TF will misalign from Trinket a lil, but try to get them lined up again if its just a few seconds.

I sometimes hold off for trinket+TF+Berserk or any combination of, if I can for an AOE pack, or a key time. Most important thing is to know how long the fight is, and how many Berserks you'll have. If you know this, you'll feel more comfortable waiting off on a berserk.

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Pushypouncin » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:21 pm

Thanks alot! Here's a few more..
Should I be saving the TF+eng gloves+troll racial for when I run away from the mob and FC back then click them, apply refresh dots, then ravag while the buffs are up. This is assuming you don't have berserk at the time.

Should I even be running out during FC? Now? And after 4.3 tier 4 bonus?

When does swipe become more effective? I assume it's when you have 3 mobs.

Should I be waiting for my energy bar to fill up to a certain percentage before I FB? If so is it a different percentage if you have berserk up?

Lastly, sometimes if I'm lazy and just using ovale, I notice that sometimes if berserk isn't up, and I reach a 5CP, it has me continue to shred, I have a rip already up at this time and the boss is above 25% health. Wouldnt I want to just use a ferocious bite instead of shredding til rip or savage roar fall off?

Thanks alot! Really appreciate th help

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:34 pm

Pushypouncin wrote:Thanks alot! Here's a few more..
Should I be saving the TF+eng gloves+troll racial for when I run away from the mob and FC back then click them, apply refresh dots, then ravag while the buffs are up. This is assuming you don't have berserk at the time.

No you use use them pretty much on cooldown. Exceptions: If you are going to energy cap hold off and shred a few times. If you are going to be out of range of the boss. If you are going to swap targets in the next 12 seconds.

Should I even be running out during FC? Now? And after 4.3 tier 4 bonus?

You should not be running out now at all. Only use FC during target changes or if you are forced to run out (ie Seeds on Staghelm, Shannox gets pulled away). I doubt the anncounted 4p bonus for T13 will survive as is. For now don't worry about running out as part of your rotation.

When does swipe become more effective? I assume it's when you have 3 mobs.
3 or more is right.

Should I be waiting for my energy bar to fill up to a certain percentage before I FB? If so is it a different percentage if you have berserk up?

Right now outside of 4p T12 Berserk you will not be FB'ing to often. If you do find a situation which you feel comfortable doing one, you will do it quickly and not hold off. During 4p T12 Berserk you should use it often as you have 5 combo points and don't need to refresh SR or Rip. The idea is to extend Berserk as long as you can and putting off a FB or any other finisher off just lessens the time.

Lastly, sometimes if I'm lazy and just using ovale, I notice that sometimes if berserk isn't up, and I reach a 5CP, it has me continue to shred, I have a rip already up at this time and the boss is above 25% health. Wouldnt I want to just use a ferocious bite instead of shredding til rip or savage roar fall off?

Like I said above the window for getting a FB out is very small. When you do see this look at your timers and find out if Rip or SR is going to be sync'd up (ie going to come off cooldown with in 5 seconds of each oter). Make sure you arn't just relying on the script and you know what is comming incase something in the encounter will force you to make a choice.

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Pushypouncin » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:49 pm

Thanks for the quick responses, really helpful!

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Yawning » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:46 am

Druidohorde wrote:A typical pull with bloodlust for me goes....

Prepot, Feral Charge in, Mangle+FF at the same time, rake, (I might Savage Roar here) shred a bunch of times while clicking ---> TF + Trinket + Berserk, RIP, then Ravage, shred, shred, shred, etc.

If you lag during that initial burst, and can't spam your buttons fast enough your dps will blow goats. If you're a mouse clicker - ouch.

Notice .... Mangle +FF happens together, at the same time.. not seperately. That means click them at the same time.... also... while you're shredding, spam your TF+Trinket+Berserk together... at the same time.. Doing this seperately = a dps loss cus of GCD lost obviously.


That's impressive considering that Mangle and Feral FF are both on the GCD.

For what it's worth current best guess for an optimal opener is something along the lines of:
Charge + FF -> Mangle -> Rake -> SR -> Shred -> TF + Berserk -> Shred -> Rake -> Rip -> Ravage!

Adjust for OoC/Crits as appropriate.
Yes, it wastes some energy in the first second, yes it intentionally clips Rake, and yes, you're GCD capped.

The only difference when opening and the steady state (out of BitW) phase of an encounter in terms of the priority list is that there's Ravage! to look at. Otherwise it's just "doing what you normally do".

Tinderhoof wrote:
Lastly, sometimes if I'm lazy and just using ovale, I notice that sometimes if berserk isn't up, and I reach a 5CP, it has me continue to shred, I have a rip already up at this time and the boss is above 25% health. Wouldnt I want to just use a ferocious bite instead of shredding til rip or savage roar fall off?

Like I said above the window for getting a FB out is very small. When you do see this look at your timers and find out if Rip or SR is going to be sync'd up (ie going to come off cooldown with in 5 seconds of each oter). Make sure you arn't just relying on the script and you know what is comming incase something in the encounter will force you to make a choice.


This was one of the main areas where Leafkiller and myself + Toskk disagreed. There's no significant gains in trying to force stagger SR and Rip with current mechanics, unlike WotlK.
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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Druidohorde » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:10 am

That's impressive considering that Mangle and Feral FF are both on the GCD.

Haha, wow. I never even noticed. I just spam keybinds so fast, hitting them multiple times. Visually atleast, I hit them at the same time hahah.

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:28 pm

Yawning wrote:This was one of the main areas where Leafkiller and myself + Toskk disagreed. There's no significant gains in trying to force stagger SR and Rip with current mechanics, unlike WotlK.

There may be no huge gains, but there is potential for bigger losses due to Rip or SR down time. It's a good suggestion to a majority of the community who isn't ranking weekly.

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:51 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Yawning wrote:This was one of the main areas where Leafkiller and myself + Toskk disagreed. There's no significant gains in trying to force stagger SR and Rip with current mechanics, unlike WotlK.

There may be no huge gains, but there is potential for bigger losses due to Rip or SR down time. It's a good suggestion to a majority of the community who isn't ranking weekly.


Let's be specific here about what the staggering entails. The idea (which I believe dates back to BC - I was involved in the discussions about doing that) was to hit SR early if it and Rip were going to expire close together. The impact of clipping SR early is both energy loss, and some uptime loss for Rip, as we need to get back up to 5 combo points (that or make the early refresh window very small). The energy loss is most likely going to come at the cost of less Shred damage since that is where our extra energy typically ends up. In the current content, every combination of conditions to optimize staggering showed as a dps loss in our sim testing. Keep in mind that the alternative, which is what the scripts currently do, is to Rip first, get one combo point and then reapply SR. Worst case this results in SR being down for around 2 seconds. However, since we try to clip Rip 2 seconds early, most of the time SR will not be down that long. The exception to this is when we get the "More Powerful Spell" condition on Rip - which is where the worst case scenario happens.

TLDR: Per our sim measurements, trading off lower Rip time, and some lost Shred damage for slightly higher SR uptime is currently a dps loss. If both Rip and SR are going to expire at the same time, simply follow your rotation, try to refresh Rip as usual (during its final tick) and then refresh SR with one combo point afterwards.

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Re: Quick Questions

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:49 pm

Just adding a little to my last post. I did not cover the case where SR expires a few seconds before Rip, where it will use up all of the combo points. Since Rip tries to refresh at 2 seconds left and overrides SR, this will only happen when SR is expiring more than 2 seconds before Rip. Prior to 4.2, I had guard code in that would not let SR refresh when Rip was within 6 seconds of expiring. However, in 4.2 SR went up in value relative to Rip and sims showed it was better to refresh SR if it is going to expire more than 2 seconds before Rip rather than wait until after Rip is refreshed plus an additional combo point is added.

The result is the same - just follow what I put in the TLDR section of the previous post.

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