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397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby scorpio0920 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:38 am

Compare the cloaks:

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:48 am

The extra agility from the second gem socket alone is enough to off-set the loss of 67 secondary stats.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Alaenar » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:58 am

Konungr wrote:
Alaenar wrote:and 1934 haste is too low


There is no such thing as "too low" of a stat such as haste, considering Haste isn't clearly better than any other stat. I personally like to have Hit/Exp Caps, Stack Mastery, and have an even balance of Crit and Haste.

Also, except for you using Starcather Compass as a BiS (Which by several people's tests it isn't better than Vial of Shadows), your list is exactly the same as mine, other than you listing choices like Neck and Belt. My list does not show the Heroic Firelands gear, even though better, because this is simply a list of gear available through Normal Dragon Soul and Valor Points, as some guilds will not go back and do old content.

Also, as was said previously, I did not include stats after reforging, since there are several different methods that are all optimal. One player will stack Mastery like myself, another will stack Haste. There is no point in trying to list out the values of the BiS set of gear with every possible method of reforging.
Alaenar wrote:410 set is basicly heroic versions of the items i mentioned above but;
We dont know if we can upgrade Valor Cloak and Valor Belt to heroic yet, if so they are BiS
If not Dreadfire Drape is still BiS as Cloak but Belt from heroic Zon'ozz replaces Valor Belt.
Same goes for necklace, if the Valor neck is upgradable its BiS
If not HC Ragnaros Neck remains as BiS.


The Zon'ozz belt is better than the Valor Belt, even at the 397 level.

Alaenar wrote:Bracers, crafted ones are BiS with epic gems because you get +10 agility from crafted bracer and there is your best secondary stat: Haste.


This is an inaccurate statement since Haste is not our Best stat, it is equal to Mastery and its power will depend on the fight mechanics and the players personal playstyle.



Are you sure Haste is not best stat for druids?

Lets think about it...
Tinderhoof wrote:For Firelands Haste was pulling ahead for some fights because of 4p T12. More energy during an extended Berserk was great. However as we start dropping 4p in favor of 2p + 2p haste falls back to about even with the other 3 secondary stats. Favoring a stat to fit your playstyle is just fine. However I would not recomend that you favor it to the exclusion of others. Like Konungr I perfer a little more Mastery, but I still keep both Crit and Haste above 1100 if I can.


Bolded lines are true... with extended berserk reforging haste is what u wanted.
But now breaking it for new 2 set makes you think haste is crap now... but it is not...
new 2 set bonus allows you to use FB with Blood in the water talent now at %60 instead of %25... but remember , FB damage is increased to an additional %100 for extra energy you have, so haste is still you best secondary stat.

All those are valid after you are hit and expertise capped ofcourse.
I'm not telling that you must forget about mastery at all.. Bleeds are the most powerful dots in game and also basicly its base of our dps. But at the moment Shred is #1 dps source #2 is auto-attack and then bleeds.

At the moment secondary stat dps is like this
Weapon Damage
Haste
Mastery
Crit

Like below;

Image

For the BiS items, the reason i chose VP belt is the haste stat on it. But Zon'ozz heroic drop probably will be better with reforges and as i said before if you can get ragnaros heroic drop neck you shall go for it. If you are not able to obtain it VP neck is the item you shall go for.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:20 am

Alaenar wrote:Are you sure Haste is not best stat for druids?


It's not exclusively better than Mastery or Crit. For the thing you are trying to prove, you will need to run far more tests than what you are currently doing, and you need to change the way you are running the tests. I thought the same way as you prior to 4.2 when I was trying to theorycraft for Firelands. Yawning and Leafkiller, through quite a few humbling explanations, showed the holes in my logic and how to more accurately determine the results of tests such as these. RSVs are extremely volatile and, if you do not understand how to use or interpret them correctly, inaccurate.

Alaenar wrote:I'm not telling that you must forget about mastery at all.. Bleeds are the most powerful dots in game and also basicly its base of our dps. But at the moment Shred is #1 dps source #2 is auto-attack and then bleeds.


This is an incomplete and incorrect statement. Shred and Auto Attack may be your #1 & 2 Damage source, you are running a high haste set-up, my #1 & 2 Damage sources are usually Rake and Rip, depending on the fight, only on some fights does my Shred damage come out on top of my Rip and Rake damage.



Yeah, your screenshot of Mew tells me nothing because it does not show the values that you have inputted in for the character being tested. Those values are RSVs which mean, based on the results, you are probably testing a Mastery stacked profile.

My Current Set-up: Mastery Stacked, Haste/Crit balance gets pretty much the same RSV results as your above picture indicates. When I switch to a Haste Stacked, Mastery/Crit balance, I get the exact opposite, with Mastery higher than Haste. That is why they are relative stat values and why Yawning has disabled them by default.

Another explanation for the phenomenon of why your Haste Value is so much higher than Crit and Mastery, if you are using your current Haste set-up, is that at certain points Haste will sim with a lot higher RSV when it is (presumed) close to a breakoff point that would either gain an extra Energy per second or an extra Shred/Mangle per minute. There have been several ferals reporting that at random values when they are testing Haste stacked set-ups that the value of Haste will randomly go from being the lowest value to much higher in the ranks, and it is presumed that it is because of the possible Haste breakoff points: 6.66% and 10%.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Alaenar » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:11 am

Here is the stat values the character i'm testing... its basicly my main char, which is my druid, which you could find upon looking my armory link ;

Image


Konungr wrote:This is an incomplete and incorrect statement. Shred and Auto Attack may be your #1 & 2 Damage source, you are running a high haste set-up, my #1 & 2 Damage sources are usually Rake and Rip, depending on the fight, only on some fights does my Shred damage come out on top of my Rip and Rake damage.


I don't know about your dps. You say its depending on fights, but currently there is only 1 different fight you can organise your gear or stats; Ultraxion. If you check some World of Logs top dpsing feral druids you will see all the top 10's dps order goes like this;
Shred
Auto-attack
Rip
Rake

Just a simple example
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Warlord_Zon'ozz/10N/dps/

Check the #2 and his damage source
Here is his/her gear
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/korgath/Xukin/simple

Haste stacked...


I'm sure you know that SR buffs your Shred and weapon damage which you should keep it up all the time.
More haste = More Energy = More Shred
If you are lucky with procs you can even squeze a FB in to your rotation while you have SR and Rip up.

Also with the new set bonus we will be using FB more then ever... so fair amount of Mastery like 25-26k ticks of Rip and FB below %60 HP, even FB with more then 35 energy ( more engery = more FB damage ) will boost up the dps amazingly, and the source of more energy is Haste.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:34 am

Alaenar wrote:Just a simple example
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... z/10N/dps/

Check the #2 and his damage source
Here is his/her gear
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/k ... kin/simple

Haste stacked...


And if he/she did not stack Haste, his #1&2 Damage Sources would not be Shred and Auto-Attack, which was the point I was making.

Alaenar wrote:I'm sure you know that SR buffs your Shred and weapon damage which you should keep it up all the time.


Perhaps you should read the tooltip of SR again, it does not do anything to buff Shred or Weapon Damage.

Alaenar wrote:More haste = More Energy = More Shred
If you are lucky with procs you can even squeze a FB in to your rotation while you have SR and Rip up.


You can do this with less than 500 Haste, I do when the OoC procs are favorable. Prior to this month my set-up had the least amount of Haste possible and I still manage to weave FBs into my rotation with the basic amount of Energy Regen. I also used to do it back in Wrath when Haste didn't affect our energy regen. You don't need a high amount of Haste to manage to use FB, it just makes it much easier, which is good since you have to sacrifice a lot of Bleed Damage to do it.

Alaenar wrote:Also with the new set bonus we will be using FB more then ever... so fair amount of Mastery like 25-26k ticks of Rip and FB below %60 HP, even FB with more then 35 energy ( more engery = more FB damage ) will boost up the dps amazingly, and the source of more energy is Haste.


Quid Pro Quo, dude. You can gain more Energy to deal more FBs at the sacrifice of Bleed Damage. Either way, depending on your playstyle and the fight mechanics, the results will be similar. That seems to be the thing you do not understand. Yes, the T13 Set Bonuses for Feral boost the value of Haste, but not to an extent that it is greater than Mastery by enough of a margin to be noticeable. It all depends on the players personal playstyle, the encounter's mechanics (and guild's strategy for that encounter), and the RNG of feral play that will detemine what is better.

I could go through, and do ~300 simulations with various fight mechanics, tier sets, reforging strategies, and other monkey wrenches, just to prove that sometimes Haste is not the best stat and Mastery will show a clear advantage, but since nothing changed between 4.2 and now, besides tier bonuses, my previous results will be an almost identical match. Since my RL does not grant me the amount of time that I had prior to 4.2 to spend ~50 hours working with Mew and various spreadsheets to compile the data, I am not going to.

My only reason for this discussion, is to point out that Haste is not clearly the best stat. It is still equal in value to Mastery, even with the T13 bonuses. In fact, the BEST way to determine stat values in the shortest amount of time is to have the 3 stats equal to one another and run the test. Since we are hovering around 4800 Secondary Stats currently, I have chosen to set each value at 1600. The results are as follows:

Image

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:42 am

@Konungr - I made the coding change to disable RSVs by default although I was on IRC with Yawning at the time...

@Alaenar - I blogged about the pitfalls of trying to use RSVs back in April. Quoting from my blog post "Bottom line – RSV calculations may be valuable to theoreticians, but do not use them as a guide for how to reforge your gear." Here is a link: http://fluiddruid.net/2011/04/rsvs-fact-or-fiction/

Yawning is currently working on a genetic algorithm to try and calculate optimum stat distributions. If he can get that working efficiently, we might be able to calculate optimum gear setups - at least for specific fights.

Now, if you truly want to make a case for a given reforging scheme, I recommend you start with a base character, setup some fixed values (like hit and exp capped) and then do a series of tests by moving the stats around and record the dps for each run. You will also need to test different fight scenarios. I did something like this back in the 4.06 timeframe and posted my results in this blog post: http://fluiddruid.net/2011/03/4-06-the- ... ary-stats/

You could be correct, it is possible that haste will provide better overall dps than other reforging schemes. But to show that you need to use a methodology other than Mew's RSV values.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:48 am

Ah, ok. I just remember my thread here and the discussions between you, Yawning, Floofies, a few others, and myself. Then Yawning came out with a new Mew and in part of the change notes was the mention of the devaluing of Toskk's formula and the change to the RSV function.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:57 am

Floofles was also on IRC that night. We were tired of so many people using RSVs for proposed reforging schemes and I made the change while we were talking (it was one line of code). If you look at the RSV blog post I linked above, make sure to read the comments. There is some interesting and valuable information from both Tangedyn and Floofles there.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:34 pm

I don't know about your dps. You say its depending on fights, but currently there is only 1 different fight you can organise your gear or stats; Ultraxion. If you check some World of Logs top dpsing feral druids you will see all the top 10's dps order goes like this;
Shred
Auto-attack
Rip
Rake

Just a simple example
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... z/10N/dps/

Check the #2 and his damage source
Here is his/her gear
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/k ... kin/simple

Haste stacked...



Before you start linking logs as evidence you really need to understand how to read them. If you actually look at the log you posted you can see clearly that it is "Faked/Baked". The log is only 42 seconds long and for that 42 seconds the raid did a total of 16 million damage. Considering that Zon'ozz has 68 million health on normal 10 man you can see this is only a snippet of the fight. The snippet you are seeing is of the feral while he was under Berserk. In that case your highest damage will ALWAYs be shred no matter your stat allocation. You can see further how the log is incomplete by looking at the Buffs cast portion of Xukin's details. You will see according to the log he didn't even cast Rip. That means that Rip was cast before this section of the log was taken. Further evidence that your data is incomplete.

Before you start linking other logs because this "Was just one of many" make sure you see what the feral in question is getting from the rest of the raid. Did they have a huge OOC proc rate? Did they get DI/Unholy Frenzy? Was the fight length just right to have 2 berserks and end right after the second one? Was their crit rate of ablities over 65%? All of these factor into higher ranking parses, as some times the stars align and everything works out perfect.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby peki » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:56 pm

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/of27 ... 901&e=6292

heres a log of our heroic25m zonozz, me haste stacked, like 2000 and about 1100 mastery, on a fight where im forced to attack from the front sometimes on the actual boss, and my job is to kill the adds so i can barely shred them either

i played quite poorly given the fight though
Image

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Yawning » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:46 pm

Leafkiller wrote:You could be correct, it is possible that haste will provide better overall dps than other reforging schemes. But to show that you need to use a methodology other than Mew's RSV values.


I need to make it so that every time someone turns that option on, it pops up a copy of viewtopic.php?p=3129#p3129

As a side note, my GA probably will be a Mewtwo thing, since having the underlying character representation I feed it be gear based would improve it considerably, and I can't be bothered at this point to make the necessary UI side changes. I'm not particularly sure that "leave this running overnight" qualifies as "a reasonable timeframe" either, but I digress. If I do get it working somewhat reasonably, I'll probably deprecate RSV support all together (or at least make it significantly harder to toggle) since I don't see much value in it, and I'll have better alternatives.

PS: Alaenar, your Mew build is old (At best it's a 4.3 PTR snapshot). You should probably use one of the 4.3 Live releases.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Floofles » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:02 pm

Hello friends.

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Re: 397/403 BiS / Valor Priority

Postby Kojo » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:18 am

Huh, just got the lfr version of vial of shadows, must be one hell of a proc.

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