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Leafkiller's 4.1 Feral Ovale Script

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:23 pm

I think it's been said before that for normal T11 the best offset piece is easily Tsanga's Helm, so nothing new there really, for heroics the Sark is. For tanking I believe it's the double attack gloves.

@ Leaf, I been doing more playing around in Mew, with some slightly questionable results regarding the value of Fluid Death.. (btw both Tiger's Fury and Berserk glyphs are yielding the exact same dps gain for me atm with Savage Roar approximately 41 dps lower than the other two, TF is the best glyph atm imo).

So I'm not sure what Mew is doing with Fluid Death atm for me, but considering Unheeded Warning + Heroic Essence of the Cyclone are supposedly considered to be the two BiS trinkets, I'm a little puzzled with these results:

(Simulator)

Heroic Essence of the Cyclone + Unheeded Warning: 22959 dps
Heroic Essence of the Cyclone + Fluid Death: 23578 dps
Unheeded Warning + Fluid Death: 23631 dps

Formulation

Heroic Essence of the Cyclone + Unheeded Warning: 23231 dps
Heroic Essence of the Cyclone + Fluid Death: 23856 dps
Unheeded Warning + Fluid Death: 23953 dps

So with those first results, a 672 dps difference between lowest and highest just seems completely nuts... is Mew thinking Fluid Death has a proc or something? or am I making a mistake ticking the checkbox in Mew for Fluid Death in the first place? or are these results simply what's best for me at the moment with my particular gearing? I mean Rawr is flatout telling me Heroic Essence + Unheeded Warning is the best combo, if I disable Heroic Essence in Rawr shows it as a 60 dps loss. I'm certainly at a loss! :lol:

Any info would be great!

~Arth~

p.s. Anyone know how accurate Rawr is atm compared to Mew for Reforging purposes? For me it was recently favouring one or two pieces with haste on, I think it brought me up from around 870 haste to over 1k, with a small loss of mastery and crit I believe but seemed to be a nice balance. If people are using Mew more for reforging, is this using the formulation or simulation? I haven't had much luck using either really as the simulation takes ages, and obviously standing chucking gold at the Reforger seems a bit daft.

p.p.s I guess Mew is fairly up to date atm (except for this oddness) but does anyone know if Yawning or someone else is going to be actively keeping it up to date for the future?
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby ShmooDude » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:26 pm

Leafkiller wrote:I will try to get to it in the next day or two. BTW - people need to change their perception of Sark vs. the tier chest. With the changes in 4.06 making secondary stats closer in value, when I compared the two chests (359 versions) in Mew the tier chest came out slightly ahead.


Yah, I plan to use gloves, not necessarily because its BiS, but because I do a decent amount of interrupting and need to get the PvP gloves for the energy bonus. This'll facilitate the easy swap out. With bonuses so close together it probably won't make a difference.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby syntax » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:40 pm

I honestly cannot see how heroic essence of the cyclone can be BiS. Especially over fluid death. 2 dropped recently and i ended up giving mine to another druid in the raid. EotS has less agility than fluid death (once stacked, which happens incredibly fast and virtually never falls off) and the proc i feel is almost worthless. All that crit for 10 seconds gets you a handful of melee hits and like 3 shreds if your're lucky. So 17 less agility, -128 mastery, and -193 hit (for every second of the fight) in order to gain 12% crit for 10 seconds once a minute???

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:42 pm

@Arth
For tanks 4P most are only going with 2P. We are using Tier head and legs. The 4P just dosn't float my tanking boat right now.
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:44 pm

@Arthaei - my guess is that you are not adjusting the stats when you swap between the trinkets. When you select a proc in Mew it does not adjust the base stats. For example, if you equip heroic essence of the cyclone and then swap to fluid death, you need to change the base values for agility, hit and (presumably) mastery and also change which proc that Mew should be expecting.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:49 pm

@ Sylva - Yeah I guessed that would be the case, just from Rawr looks like total bis would be full 4set heroic gear with the double attack gloves as offset. But yeah just offset pieces have always been strong for tanking - I'm currently using offset shoulders, legs, helm etc. myself in my tank set.

@ Leaf - I'm an idiot.
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:01 pm

Arthaei wrote:p.p.s I guess Mew is fairly up to date atm (except for this oddness) but does anyone know if Yawning or someone else is going to be actively keeping it up to date for the future?



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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:40 pm

Ok new (simulator) values actually inputting stats into Mew:

Unheeded Warning + Fluid Death: 22904
Heroic Essence + Fluid Death: 22965
Heroic Essence + Unheeded Warning: 22959

Well this is even worse now hah, a 6 dps difference between using FD or UW with the Essence... Although Rawr still tells me if I use Fluid Death over Unheeded Warning it's a 73 dps loss... :shock:

@Syntax, - I think it's all about whether you utilise the proc or not. Saving Berserk or a potion etc, or reapplying full Rips and Rake during the proc is going to be a huge dps boost. Mastery is devalued somewhat since the buffs to Shred it seemes to line up pretty much with Unheeded Warning's proc aswell.
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby syntax » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:37 pm

Arthaei wrote:@Syntax, - I think it's all about whether you utilise the proc or not. Saving Berserk or a potion etc, or reapplying full Rips and Rake during the proc is going to be a huge dps boost. Mastery is devalued somewhat since the buffs to Shred it seemes to line up pretty much with Unheeded Warning's proc aswell.

You are going to be very hard pressed to try and line things up with the proc on essence. You actually have to wait for it to come off cooldown and then wait for it to proc, leaving you to potentially have to wait 50+ seconds to use your cooldowns, which in almost every situation is going to b very undesirable. If the essence would change to an "on use" it would omfg amazing, but alas it is not. I just think that in a real-world situation essence just doesn't match up to the way it does in a patchwork style fight.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby ShmooDude » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:29 pm

Arthaei wrote:Ok new (simulator) values actually inputting stats into Mew:

Unheeded Warning + Fluid Death: 22904
Heroic Essence + Fluid Death: 22965
Heroic Essence + Unheeded Warning: 22959

Well this is even worse now hah, a 6 dps difference between using FD or UW with the Essence... Although Rawr still tells me if I use Fluid Death over Unheeded Warning it's a 73 dps loss... :shock:

@Syntax, - I think it's all about whether you utilise the proc or not. Saving Berserk or a potion etc, or reapplying full Rips and Rake during the proc is going to be a huge dps boost. Mastery is devalued somewhat since the buffs to Shred it seemes to line up pretty much with Unheeded Warning's proc aswell.


Crit/haste (though melee dots aren't affected by haste) is dynamic for dots. Refreshing Rake/Rip while EotC is up won't boost your dps at all. Tiger's Fury tends to be the exception rather than the rule (in that it affects the DoT's whole duration and not just the ticks during the proc/abilities duration). So really you'd only have to line up Shred/FB, and even then its probably not worth the effort... (unless you're on patchwerk!)

As far as the trinket itself. Remember that proc is going to have a roughly 1/5 uptime (slightly less). So if you napkin math divide the proc's crit rating by 5, that's its average value if you want to look at it like that:

So we have:
Heroic Essence of the Cyclone
363 Agility
435 Critical Strike Rating (in reality it'll be slightly lower, but not by much)

vs

Fluid Death
380 Agility
321 Hit/Mastery (reforged obviously, just leaving as a total to show the point)

So while Fluid Death is 17 Agility higher. Heroic Essence has an average 114 more secondary ratings (which are all fairly close together after the latest patch).

Does this help illustrate why Heroic Essence is better than Fluid Death (if not by a whole lot because of the reasons everyone's mentioned earlier in the thread).

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:18 pm

Version 3.6.2 of my script is posted. It has 2 extra definable cooldown boxes to far right (just define them to show nothing if you do not want to see them). It also has the Evil requested feature - a toggle on t11 set detection for the rotation. There is a t11 option titled "Detect t11 set bonus" that everyone should turn on. If you turn this off it will never run the 4 piece mangle code. If it is turned on it will detect how many pieces you have and run the 4 piece code when it is appropriate. If you are evil, you can turn off the 4 piece set bonus code ;)

Edit - I forgot to add, I need someone with a 4 piece set bonus to verify the code. Cho'gall was not forthcoming to me this week.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Lax » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:38 am

Did you post it yet Leafkiller? I still see the old version on the first page.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:46 am

Will verify if it works when you upload it Leaf. ;)

Anyone have an idea about those last results I got btw? seems heroic essence should be in the mix regardless really, so between the other two trinkets - FD and UW, one program showing a 6 dps difference and another a 73 dps loss.. not sure what to believe tbh. Although I'm assuming Rawr is probably right as iirc the best part about UW is that it just becomes better and better as gearing improves.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:30 pm

Arthaei, the new script was uploaded - the post must not have gone through :(. As for your results, I am wondering what you have for settings including talents, buffs, glyphs, stat points, sim script, etc. UW+EoC always comes up 80-100dps ahead of FD+EoC in my sim runs.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:40 pm

The new script is uploaded now. I guess I did not verify it uploaded last night, I did get a lag spike but I thought it completed.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby CaptainCub » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:05 pm

Yeah upgrading Fluid Death to H:EoTC (in conjunction with Unheeded Warning) bumped up my simulated dps from 23,582 to 23,668, not a significant upgrade but still one. As for replacing UW with Fluid Death it was simulated as a ~30 dps loss. So I guess it could depend on the balance of your secondary stats, how you reforged them and how the passive stats of Fluid Death plays into the whole picture.

ShmooDude wrote:Crit/haste (though melee dots aren't affected by haste) is dynamic for dots. Refreshing Rake/Rip while EotC is up won't boost your dps at all.

Can anyone confirm this? In contrast, is the strength of our DoTs as defined by Attack Power indeed calculated upon their application and not refreshed dynamically? And what about mastery?

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Beanna » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:31 pm

Leafkiller wrote:I forgot to add, I need someone with a 4 piece set bonus to verify the code. Cho'gall was not forthcoming to me this week.

It works perfectly. When I check the "Detect t11 set bonus" option Ovale suggests me to mangle to stack the buff and when I uncheck the box it suggests me to Shred while mangle is up on the target, just as intended.
Do you think it is possible to add an option to trace the "Strength of the Panther" buff among the far right boxes? It would help a lot to see the stacks of the buff and the time remaining. :)

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:53 pm

Beanna, can you toggle on mangle on one of the cooldown boxes and tell me what the behavior is with 4 piece enabled? I think it will show the mangle icon with a cooldown to when panther is going to expire. I could change it to display the panther spell with the cooldown and then show mangle when panther is expired (or perhaps 4 seconds before it expires).

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Beanna » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:40 pm

Leafkiller wrote:Beanna, can you toggle on mangle on one of the cooldown boxes and tell me what the behavior is with 4 piece enabled? I think it will show the mangle icon with a cooldown to when panther is going to expire. I could change it to display the panther spell with the cooldown and then show mangle when panther is expired (or perhaps 4 seconds before it expires).

With 4p t11 the cooldown on the mangle icon is 30 sec. I did not noticed this because I still use the old FBN to track my buffs & debuffs and I had not toggle on the mangle box in Ovale. Thank you. :)
(I think the Panther icon would have made the tracking more obvious but it's ok now I know ^^)

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Evil » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:47 am

Leafkiller wrote:Version 3.6.2 of my script is posted. It has 2 extra definable cooldown boxes to far right (just define them to show nothing if you do not want to see them). It also has the Evil requested feature - a toggle on t11 set detection for the rotation. There is a t11 option titled "Detect t11 set bonus" that everyone should turn on. If you turn this off it will never run the 4 piece mangle code. If it is turned on it will detect how many pieces you have and run the 4 piece code when it is appropriate. If you are evil, you can turn off the 4 piece set bonus code ;)

Edit - I forgot to add, I need someone with a 4 piece set bonus to verify the code. Cho'gall was not forthcoming to me this week.


Thanks Leafkiller - I'm trying to test it now. It will be very handy for some of the hc bosses to turn it off. Thanks again dude - appreciate your work!!

I'll keep you informed about my testings after todays HC Raid.

PS: Just a quick question - when I turn T11 on whats about the option "To Mangle" - possible to turn that off when T11 option checked? Just curious because you always have to mangle to keep the buff up - so my guess is I could disable "To mangle". Right - or totaly wrong? Thanks

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby CaptainCub » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:54 am

When you switch targets you may have to apply mangle onto your new target although you still have SoTP up.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:18 am

CaptainCub wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:Crit/haste (though melee dots aren't affected by haste) is dynamic for dots. Refreshing Rake/Rip while EotC is up won't boost your dps at all.

Can anyone confirm this? In contrast, is the strength of our DoTs as defined by Attack Power indeed calculated upon their application and not refreshed dynamically? And what about mastery?


Shmoo is right with regards to actually refreshing bleeds during the proc, seems to be only Tiger's Fury at the moment that buffs bleeds and then continues to buff them long after it's gone itself. Everything else is dynamically applied to dots so whilst Heroic Essence has procced, it will just increase the crit chance of bleeds. If you have a mastery proc trinket or an agi proc or pop a potion etc. all of those things will get applied to the bleeds for their buff duration.

Leafkiller wrote:Arthaei, the new script was uploaded - the post must not have gone through :(. As for your results, I am wondering what you have for settings including talents, buffs, glyphs, stat points, sim script, etc. UW+EoC always comes up 80-100dps ahead of FD+EoC in my sim runs.


Talents are standard build really (nothing changed regarding dps at least), the only buffs I don't have checked are tricks,unholy frenzy,dark intent (I get this fairly often but didn't want to totally rely on always having it) and shattering throw. Glyphs I've got are Rip,Shred, Feral Charge and Tiger's Fury. The only thing I can think of that might be making this give odd results is that I'm using the heroic 2h mace until I get the heroic staff from Halfus so maybe it's screwing up stats because of that?

The stats I'm changing as I change trinkets around and as for the sim script I'm using whatever comes with Mew? how would i go about changing that script?

It's pretty odd it's coming up with the exact same results now using the simulator script:

hc essence + fluid death: 23272
hc essence + unheeded: 23272

:?
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby CaptainCub » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:23 pm

Arthaei wrote:If you have a mastery proc trinket or an agi proc or pop a potion etc. all of those things will get applied to the bleeds for their buff duration

If this were right, what about the "A more powerful spell is already active" message that prevents us from refreshing/clipping Rip when it has been buffed with a Potion of the Tol'vir or Synapse Springs, it's got to mean at the very least that the attack power part of the agility buff persists until the end of the Rip duration. I'm pretty sure Rake works the same way, except that overwrite protections were not put in place.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:01 pm

CaptainCub wrote:
Arthaei wrote:If you have a mastery proc trinket or an agi proc or pop a potion etc. all of those things will get applied to the bleeds for their buff duration

If this were right, what about the "A more powerful spell is already active" message that prevents us from refreshing/clipping Rip when it has been buffed with a Potion of the Tol'vir or Synapse Springs, it's got to mean at the very least that the attack power part of the agility buff persists until the end of the Rip duration. I'm pretty sure Rake works the same way, except that overwrite protections were not put in place.


Not necessarily, it could simply be that its legacy code because it used to work like that in the past. I'm gonna test right now to see how it works.

EDIT:

Test 1:
Synapse Springs activated after Rip is applied
Rip no SS = 5725
Rip w/ SS = 5725

Test 2:
Synapse Springs activated before Rip is applied
Rip w/ SS = 5776
Rip no SS = 5776

So we know attack power is chosen at the beginning. Crit is much harder to test. I don't have a mastery proc, but (hopefully) removing my weapon should have the same effect and that seems to be on application too.

Maybe my information is either A) old, or B) only for caster dots or C) only for haste (which we don't get anyhow) because I know they had to nerf haste scaling for warlock dots due to trinket procs/uses at some point so they made it all dynamic. I guess I assumed it applied for everything but the two things I'm able to reliably test (AP and mastery) seem to be on application. Short of being able to get to 100% crit anyone have any ideas that doesn't involve attacking a target dummy for hours on end?

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Beanna » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:55 am

About Synapse Springs, I was wondering why Mew shows them as being under any +80 agi from other professions?
I mean, this great activated +480 agi mini-trinket timed with TF to refresh our dots for full duration with a big AP boost and which produces a big energy pool to get the most out of it should be better than other professions, I am right?

Yawning's script and Leafkiller's script both say that engineering is about a ~50 DPS loss on my toon and I don't find any reason to explain this DPS drop.
I correctly reduced my agility by 80 when swapping my professions on Mew.

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