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Leafkiller's 4.1 Feral Ovale Script

Face-rippin fun.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby track_01 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:43 am

oh yea, the huge dps loss is not really justified because of my sloppy dps test (i guess and it was already 4:30 am).
it sums up pretty much the same with and without your script. (and i was testing only 3 minutes each time without berserker, so my dps results are pretty much wrong)

seems like i have to believe in your reasonings, since especially i need to adapt to the new priority system which i am still not really used to it.

thank you for enlightening me :) need to climb up the dps charts in our raids.
still if i feel unsecure about your coding, i wont hold back asking (maybe stupid) stuff :)

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:53 pm

I will always listen to any suggestions - and often test them out if they are a new idea or something that might be viable due to mechanics changes in the game. The script is always going to be based on sim testing as it is most reliable tool we have - so no matter what our intuitions, opinions or ideas are, only those things that test out to be dps increases will go into it.

As a side note, about a week ago Yawning made a version of Mew that had a 4.06 switch in it. While the 4.06 numbers were slightly off of what ended up on PTR (apparently Rip was nerfed less than what they posted per testing done on the PTR) they were close enough to play with the sim scripts to see if anything needed to be changed in the rotation for the patch. I could not find anything that changed in any meaningful way (I found a couple of things that could add a whopping 1dps). The only interesting thing I found was that Glyph of Ferocious Bite does become a dps increase as gear gets better. I am not sure where the breakpoint is yet but it was an up for a T-11 premade profile I had left over from Beta while it was still a small dps loss for my toon (who has no tier bonus as yet and has 10/17 slots with 359 gear along with Tia's Grace).

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Alaron » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:18 pm

While we're discussing simplifying...what's the impact of dropping FB above 25%, in light of the Shred buffs?

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:44 pm

Alaron wrote:While we're discussing simplifying...what's the impact of dropping FB above 25%, in light of the Shred buffs?


Um...it shows as a 9dps up on a slightly old version of my toon to drop FB entirely from the rotation outside of the Blood in the Water range. That is using my sim script. I will do some testing against different profiles and also test the default script to see if the results are similar.

Ok - testing on the default script with the same mew profile showed a 1dps gain by removing FB entirely from the rotation prior to the Blood in the Water range.

Assuming I see similar results on other profiles it is definitely worth removing it from the rotation. I did the testing with the SR resync code still in so I will do some additional testing to ensure there is no interaction between the two.

Interesting observation Alaron.

Edit: I will also test different profiles with the Glyph of FB. My previous testing showed that as a DPS gain in higher level gear but it is unclear how that changes if we remove the FB code.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby phalk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:40 am

That would be really good. FB used to always mess up with my priorities on WOTLK and I don't really like the ability. Being able to skip it altogether before 25% would be a really nice change. Specially now since we will be punished by heavily movemented fights with the damage change from dots to Shred.

Is there any way to test how this would affect the priorities on lower level gear too? For instance, heroic blues.
Using my bad reasoning, since we would have less combo points to work to begin with, it would also be better to skip it.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Alaron » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:26 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
Alaron wrote:While we're discussing simplifying...what's the impact of dropping FB above 25%, in light of the Shred buffs?


Assuming I see similar results on other profiles it is definitely worth removing it from the rotation. I did the testing with the SR resync code still in so I will do some additional testing to ensure there is no interaction between the two.

Edit: I will also test different profiles with the Glyph of FB. My previous testing showed that as a DPS gain in higher level gear but it is unclear how that changes if we remove the FB code.


Great, can't wait to see your results. I'll be putting up a post on feral changes once the patch actually goes live, and hope to discuss that as part of it. (I'd do testing myself, but I'm pretty occupied at the moment.)

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:55 pm

I tested dropping FB from the rotation against 4 profiles and in all cases it is either a small dps gain or dps neutral. I also tested a toon where I swapped a bunch of crit into haste to reflect the changing RSVs in the patch and had the same results. Looks like we will become Shred machines again. With this change you do not want to use the glyph of FB. Although I did not check on every profile, glyph of TF continues to come out ahead of glyph of Berserk.

Dropping the SR resync code continues to look like a small (<15dps) loss - but would make the cycle cleaner as it is a small window. Do people have any opinions on dropping this from the cycle?

One thing I do not have is a profile with 372 gear in it.


*Note - all of the testing I did today was with my sim script and not the default sim script that Yawning ships with Mew. I did test that script against a couple of profiles yesterday and saw similar results for dropping FB.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Blazzor » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:59 pm

yo bro.I have Sr out of my rotation atm since it makes it cleaner.I can use the combos for some more useful stuff now

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Dabeasty » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:31 am

Leafkiller wrote:I tested dropping FB from the rotation against 4 profiles and in all cases it is either a small dps gain or dps neutral. I also tested a toon where I swapped a bunch of crit into haste to reflect the changing RSVs in the patch and had the same results. Looks like we will become Shred machines again. With this change you do not want to use the glyph of FB. Although I did not check on every profile, glyph of TF continues to come out ahead of glyph of Berserk.

Dropping the SR resync code continues to look like a small (<15dps) loss - but would make the cycle cleaner as it is a small window. Do people have any opinions on dropping this from the cycle?

One thing I do not have is a profile with 372 gear in it.


*Note - all of the testing I did today was with my sim script and not the default sim script that Yawning ships with Mew. I did test that script against a couple of profiles yesterday and saw similar results for dropping FB.


Mentioned in another thread - you have TF > Berserk. What are your thoughts on this if you have Engi proff and macro the glove enhancement with TF? From my simple brain I can see the TF glyph causing trouble since it will get me out of whack with my glove 'use'.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Dabeasty » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:56 am

Leafkiller wrote:apparently Rip was nerfed less than what they posted per testing done on the PTR


Yawning's original workings based on what they posted had the changes as more or less neutral on our overall dps. Given what you say here, does that mean we actually had a minor buff overall? How is PTR dps stacking up compared to live?

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Alaron » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:23 am

I haven't done any PTR testing personally. Every sim I've ran so far with the adjusted numbers has shown a buff, but in practice, most people don't get quite as many shreds in as a sim says they should, so it should be pretty close.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:42 pm

I have not been able to get on the PTR to test - it has been down every time I tried but overall we should be better off - if for no other reason then the Mata changes and the change to Unheeded Warning.

Just looking at my personal gems and using a very conservative RSV system where agi is 2.5 and all the secondary stats are 1.0, I am going up by 140 agi and going down by 160 secondary stats once the patch goes live. This is based on my current relentless meta requiring 3 reds. Once I can get one of the new Agile metas, that is an additional 33 agility.

140 * 2.5 = 350
350 - 160 = 190 RSV gain (my current RSV in Mew for agi is actually close to 2.9 not 2.5).

Expect something between 200-300 dps from the meta change alone. My sims showed that Unheeded Warning is worth another 240+dps for my toon over Tia's Grace.

Put together that it will be over 500dps gain from gear/gemming. Last time I measured the rotation itself, I was showing about a 40dps loss on my toon, while it was a clear gain on a T11 premade - so the new dps changes are scaling better in our sims, and I may already be at a point where it is neutral as I have acquired some additional gear.

The net gain from the patch will be substantial and continue to grow as our gear scales up.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby shinryu » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:22 am

Bit of a quick intro, long time follower, first time poster :D

Anyways, I had a question about your rather wonderful ovale script...it seems to me that it's recommended Rake quite a bit, even if it has about half its duration yet. Now, I know clipping it isn't as bad as it once was, but it seems odd that it would recommend it so often, especially since that energy could be saved for a second longer to give a Shred. So yeah, just sort of curious as to why that is, and if that might change once the 4.0.6 changes go through with the Shred buff and Rip bleed nerf?

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:02 pm

Mihir discovered that under certain circumstances it was a dps up to refresh Rake during TF (this was pre-Cata post 4.0 patch). I did some further modeling and found that the optimum time at level 85 was with 9 or less seconds left on Rake. I repeated the tests with a 4.06 version of Ovale and this is still the case.

If you look at the script itself, there are two separate logic sections for Rake. One of them tries to refresh Rake during its last tick. The other tries to refresh Rake if TF is active and Rake has less than 9 seconds remaining. Likely you are seeing this fairly often as the script will try to burn through your energy before TF so as to not waste any, including refreshing Rake, and then 6 or so seconds later ask you to refresh Rake again in preference to Shred. Simulation shows this to be about a 100dps increase over not refreshing Rake during TF. As discussed elsewhere, if you try to wait on Rake for TF, the simulations show it to be a dps loss. Rake does behave differently than Rip in this respect as it is not worthwhile to clip Rip early for a TF. Rake does has both some initial damage plus the DoT which makes refreshing Rake early not as much of an opportunity loss as refreshing Rip early.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby shinryu » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:37 pm

Leafkiller wrote:Mihir discovered that under certain circumstances it was a dps up to refresh Rake during TF (this was pre-Cata post 4.0 patch). I did some further modeling and found that the optimum time at level 85 was with 9 or less seconds left on Rake. I repeated the tests with a 4.06 version of Ovale and this is still the case.

If you look at the script itself, there are two separate logic sections for Rake. One of them tries to refresh Rake during its last tick. The other tries to refresh Rake if TF is active and Rake has less than 9 seconds remaining. Likely you are seeing this fairly often as the script will try to burn through your energy before TF so as to not waste any, including refreshing Rake, and then 6 or so seconds later ask you to refresh Rake again in preference to Shred. Simulation shows this to be about a 100dps increase over not refreshing Rake during TF. As discussed elsewhere, if you try to wait on Rake for TF, the simulations show it to be a dps loss. Rake does behave differently than Rip in this respect as it is not worthwhile to clip Rip early for a TF. Rake does has both some initial damage plus the DoT which makes refreshing Rake early not as much of an opportunity loss as refreshing Rip early.

Ah ok, that makes complete sense. Thanks for the info! :D

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Tress » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:59 pm

If you're currently without the FB glyph like yourself Leaf, shouldn't FB be taken out of the "rotation" during berserk? Currently it's showing up some and I continue to ignore it but I was just wondering your thoughts on this.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:52 am

At the current time unglyphed FB is a dps up during Berserk when called for by the script. Unglyphed FB is a lot of damage.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Tress » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:21 pm

Leafkiller wrote:At the current time unglyphed FB is a dps up during Berserk when called for by the script. Unglyphed FB is a lot of damage.


That's cool then, I was just worried with the massive amount of energy taken away by using it even during berserk that it may be a dps loss overall. Thanks for the clarification.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby shinryu » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:54 pm

So will we be seeing some changes to the script once the patch hits? I'm presuming with the nerf to bleeds that Ferocious Bite would probably just be taken out until the "execution" phase and probably more emphasis on Shred?

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:29 pm

I am planning an update - I just want to wait and see if anything else changes. The main things will be FB handling, possible removal of the desync code for SR, and also some optional logic for FC given all the bosses that we can FC on with no movement penalty at all (the upcoming release of Mew has code in it that simulates FC now).

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Beanna » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:33 pm

Tonight we used World of Logs for the first time and I realized after the raid that I had very high DPS results compared to all the logs stored on the site, especially a magnificent 6th place in the world ranking on Cho'gall, so I want to say a huge thank you to Leafkiller for his wonderful script and also to Alaron for this blog I read every day with pleasure. Thank you guys. ;)

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby orionj » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:29 pm

Is it possible to perhaps add a check box to allow skull Bash into the rotation on those times where I have to use it when it's off cooldown like on maloriak or the adds on Nefarion, or have some indicator that you need to use an interrupt? It tends to hurt my rotation trying to fit the interrupt in, even with the pvp gloves.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:11 pm

orionj wrote:Is it possible to perhaps add a check box to allow skull Bash into the rotation on those times where I have to use it when it's off cooldown like on maloriak or the adds on Nefarion, or have some indicator that you need to use an interrupt? It tends to hurt my rotation trying to fit the interrupt in, even with the pvp gloves.


It is very complicated to build in support for interrupts (I have thought about this).

Some of the issues:
What spell to interrupt is fight dependent, and also target dependent. You need to know both what spell to interrupt and also what the duration is between casts, and also for many fights you will be part of an interrupt rotation. You do need to pool extra energy for interrupts (even with the PvP gloves for really fast casts). Also, timing the use of TF comes is trickier because you want to burn energy for TF while making sure you have enough to interrupt, and you cannot always do both if an interrupt is about to be required.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby orionj » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:26 pm

I have been thinking about if it is possible to say make sure 15-25 (depending on if one has the gloves or not) energy is always available when your interrupt is off cooldown or is coming off its cooldown check box or something along those lines would most likely work.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.01 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Alaron » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:58 pm

I don't want to speak for LK here (he's the Ovale expert, I just fiddle) but that's probably doable, to have a checkbox to not ever go below 25 (or 15) energy.

Having the SB icon actually pop up, though, when an interrupt was needed would be quite difficult and probably an overreach of what Ovale should be doing.

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