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Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

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Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:20 pm

A lot of people have been asking if/when should they swap from Glyph of Bloodletting to Glyph of Tiger's Fury. The answer that came out of testing during the 4.3 beta period was that you would be swapping glyphs when you got the 4 piece tier 13 set bonus.

Retesting this today with the top of tree version of Mew (1074), the answer could easily be never.

I tested this by switching my profile to 4 piece T13 and also testing the two included profiles that Mihir generated. In all cases using the default Patchwerk profile, Glyph of Bloodletting comes out ahead of Glyph of TF in measured dps.

This is a good time to remind people that beta results are exactly that, beta results. Several things have changed since the initial testing was done, including optimization of the cat rotation, and improved knowledge of the gear and procs.

My advice to everyone is to, whenever possible, download Mew yourself, import your toon into it, set up the food/potions/flasks and buff sections appropriately and then do your own measurements.

Edit: Just for fun, I just tested this on Tangedyn's toon (using his cat spec). Swapping from Glyph of TF to Glyph of Bloodletting showed a 99.5 dps increase.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Konungr » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:36 pm

I received similar results a week or two ago, but I dismissed them as I wouldn't be getting full T13 4PC for another few weeks and decided to revisit it again until it would be relevant.

On a side note, I'm kind of glad that someone else has received similar results and that mine wasn't just a freak result.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:52 pm

Personally, I am glad to see that GoB is staying ahead of GoTF. In my opinion, the rotation is easier to maintain and more robust with 22 second Rips.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Konungr » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:55 pm

Leafkiller wrote:Personally, I am glad to see that GoB is staying ahead of GoTF. In my opinion, the rotation is easier to maintain and more robust with 22 second Rips.


Aye, same here. It also makes double dotting/target swapping a bit easier.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby peki » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:30 pm

someone was trying to tell me earlier than GoB was better than the mangle glyph for ultraxion, he seemed quite certain


i know this is the wrong thread, sorry
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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:12 pm

peki wrote:someone was trying to tell me earlier than GoB was better than the mangle glyph for ultraxion, he seemed quite certain


i know this is the wrong thread, sorry


Yep, wrong thread. FWIW, I just retested this and for my gear, GoM is simming at 475 dps better than GoB when I turned on the "Frontal Attacks" and "Boss Cannot Parry" options in Mew.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby tangedyn » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:26 pm

peki wrote:someone was trying to tell me earlier than GoB was better than the mangle glyph for ultraxion, he seemed quite certain


GoB is usually the acronym for GoBerserk, which IS better than GoMangle.
GoMangle is still better than GoBL (Bloodletting) though.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Kalze » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:32 am

Thanks for the heads up; pretty happy to know my rotation gets to stay a bit more simplified. :)
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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Darkrealm » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:58 am

Wow, I'm actually quite surprised at this result. I'm also disappointed tbh.

I've been running with the standard glyph setup for ages and the rotation was getting stale. When I got 4pc (thanks lfr) I thought this might make glyph choices more interesting.

What I have noticed though is that even if GoTF was better in single target sims, practically speaking it was difficult to use on CD every time making a lot of the extra 5 seconds redundant. Especially on fights where you are chasing adds.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby peki » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:40 pm

I used GoB meaning Bloodletting, as the people above me in this thread did, I continued it so no one would get confused..failed anyway
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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Krafmon » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:53 pm

Hello, long time reader, first time poster. After reading this thread i got intrigued because i dislike playing without GoBL so i tested my own profile (i have 4 t13):

With GoTF:
DPS: 41196.03802 +/- 17.00587
Min/Max DPS: 37800.11667 / 44337.03667
StdDev: 867.64666

With GoBL:
DPS: 41893.74647 +/- 17.09871
Min/Max DPS: 38481.97667 / 45024.03333
StdDev: 872.38309

Now as you can see the dps differance is quite huge (almost 700 dps) so i triple checked if i perhaps missed some buff but it turned out i haven't. So while result is logical (GoBL>GoTF) i don't quite understand how can difference be so big just because of 1 glyph change. Only logical explanation to this i think is Kiroptyric Sigil going out of sync when using GoTF but still this is a very big dps difference and i really hope that a general consensus will be GoBL>GoTF even with 4 t13.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:19 pm

@Krafmon - the large difference you are seeing is a function of Kiroptyric Sigil (KS). The value of this trinket is being able to sync it with TF. The default Mew cat simulation script synchronizes on-use trinkets with TF casts. Since KS has a 90 second cooldown, it will sync up with the first TF, but may miss the fourth one if you have GoTF and end up hitting the fifth one (continuing on from there). The net result of this can be lower uptime on the trinket.

To illustrate this, I did a few tests. First, I grabbed the Mihir-Cat-410.mew sample profile. This uses KS. I also made a copy of the default simulation script and made a version of the script uses KS as soon as it is off of cooldown rather than waiting for TF to be up. I tested with both glyphs, GoTF and GoBL (4 tests total). I did the tests with the default fight length of 5 minutes. Here are the results:

With the on-use effect synced with TF:
GoBL: DPS 50501 KS uptime 18.7%
GoTF: DPS 49615 KS uptime 15.2%

With the on-use trinket being used on cooldown:
GoBL: DPS 50241 KS uptime 19.4%
GoTF: DPS 49591 KS uptime 19.4%

I also tested the "Mihir 410 vial of shadows.mew" profile with both glyphs:
GoBL: DPS 51405
GoTF: DPS 51367

====================

Looking at the data, you can see how dependent KS is on TF and syncing to it as quickly as possible as it comes off of cooldown. You can see this in the lower uptime of KS with GoTF and in the case where the on-use effect is not synchronized you can see how much lower overall dps is. When I tested without an on-use trinket, the difference between the glyphs is pretty small.

One thing you can take away from this is that the on-use effects are balanced around being used with other cooldowns and not lining them up properly can make for a significant dps loss. This also explains why on-use trinkets vary across classes quite a bit as different classes have different offensive cooldown intervals.

In closing, if you are using KS, make sure it is macroed to TF and also to TF/Berserk.

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Krafmon » Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:52 pm

Cheers for a thorough response, i was basically thinking the same that KS was the cause just couldn't find proper words i guess :P
Anyways glad to see we're going back to glyph of bloodletting :D

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Re: Glyph of Bloodletting vs. Glyph of Tiger's Fury

Postby Yawning » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:43 am

Figure I'll chime in on this. The reason for the change is two fold.
a) Kiril's ICD previously was set to 50 sec, now it's 55 sec. With a 15% proc rate, it lines up remarkably well with something that has a 30 sec cooldown now (Basically profiles with Kiril end up hitting the "procs that line up with the TF cooldown" case).
b) I fixed a long standing (like, it's been in the code for over a year) bug with Predatory Strikes and Ravage that decreases the amount of damage Ravages beyond the first one do. This devalues 4T13 (and mid-encounter Ravages) a decent amount though the set bonus is still quite good.

The Kiril change on it's own is sufficient to alter glyph values, but the second change didn't help things.

As a side note, which Glyph does better will be entirely encounter/player ability specific (And I said this when I first posted on the subject. I can quite easily write a encounter that would vastly favor one or the other). I vaguely suspect that the vast majority of people won't actually be able to use Glyph of Tiger's Fury to full effect even on encounters that favor it.

@Leafkiller: Making profiles by hand is old and lame. You should just use chardev profiles now, especially since the feature needs debugging/testing.
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