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6.2 Feral Discussion

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6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Grizzlebee » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:47 am

I think the 6.2 PTR dicussion thread title is a bit misleading now that the patch is live and especially for people who are checking out the forums for the first time. It also has some outdated information with all the tuning.

Let's try to move the live 6.2 discussion to this thread.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Grizzlebee » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:04 pm

Some things that I have learned from raiding this week.

[*] Mirror of the Blademaster is pretty strong as long as there is little movement from where you are AoEing and the adds will live long enough. In a situation like Kromog, single target is key and thrash+swipe will be enough to help on hands, but on Shadow Lord Iskar this trinket helped me keep up with other DPS on AoE.

[*] Until you get your 4p T18, the T17 2p is very helpful on fights like Hellfire Assault, Kromrok, and Xhul'horac.

[*] I don't have Seed of Creation yet, but I can see it being very strong for Gorefiend and Kilrogg. For Kilrogg, the damage buff lasts a full minute so a 42-46 second berserk will tear up the meters. Stenhaldi suggests getting the Visions of Death the 2nd time so you come out around when your 3m CDs will come back up.

[*] On Tyrant Velhari, the damage taken in phase 1 is based on how long you move, not how far you move. Feline swiftness is useful here to cut down on movement time. Also, I played around with tapping the movement key very fast to move and I took less damage. Use this to make small adjustments because during the Infernal Tempest you will have to move more, try using your Savage Defense charges here.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Dandeleon » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:31 pm

About Soul Capacitor... I'm worried about using it. I think a trinket never can result in dps loss.
They can change it to be on-use or when it fade it put a buff (5~10s) that "explode" on next attack.
Can someone use twitter to send a msg to devs about that ? If Soul Capacitor is designed to be a potencial dps loss in some fights, and if not they can change something to be more reliable.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Grizzlebee » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:43 pm

I don't think trinkets are designed to be good at everything. Seed of Creation could be bad in some instances, same with Mirror of the Blade Master. With trinkets such as Soul Capacitor, you have to judge which set of trinkets is optimal. All Aggixx's simcraft results do is tell us what is good in a perfectly played vacuum. While useful, fight mechanics will always throw something unforeseen and interesting into the mix that will make certain fights favor one thing over another.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:55 pm

I used it for about an hour last night in raid and never experienced a wasted proc--however, it's not hard to envision a scenario where it could have a pretty bad result.

I would definitely prefer if it was an On Use trinket and, at the very least, I would like if you could use /cancelaura on it (which I believe they removed in a later PTR build.)

Right now it does seem like it would be quite risky to use on certain fights...but it is pretty amazing when it works!

I also quested with it mostly for giggles in Tanaan and it was a steady mix of both extremely annoying (yay, proc'ing when the mob is at 1% health!) and absolutely hilarious (blowing up a massive group of everything by popping cooldowns.)
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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Dandeleon » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:19 pm

Grizzlebee wrote:I don't think trinkets are designed to be good at everything.


With any other trinket you can waste procs or effectiveness, but they never invalidades 10s of dps.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:25 pm

It's considered a big risk vs reward trinket. You will have the highest potential, but will also risk missing out on stuff. Same thing would have happened with Rune if you got your proc right when a boss would leap away. Everything you would have refreshed didn't get applied and you lost the whole proc.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Dandeleon » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:18 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:It's considered a big risk vs reward trinket. You will have the highest potential, but will also risk missing out on stuff. Same thing would have happened with Rune if you got your proc right when a boss would leap away. Everything you would have refreshed didn't get applied and you lost the whole proc.


My point is, with Rune "oh shit, I waste one proc". With Soul, "oh shit, 10s pressing buttons for absolute 0 dps". Much more painful, and a bigger impact in final dps.
I just want know if that is a design intent.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby ShmooDude » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:20 pm

Seems like they should make it so that if the duration ends on the soul cap, it unleashes on your next attack (with a long duration, like 30+ seconds), that way if you're not able to attack at the moment it ends its not wasted.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:35 pm

Yeah, that is not a bad idea.
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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Dandeleon » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:58 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Seems like they should make it so that if the duration ends on the soul cap, it unleashes on your next attack (with a long duration, like 30+ seconds), that way if you're not able to attack at the moment it ends its not wasted.

The exact same thing I was trying say, but my english sucks.

I don't know where we can post this kind of suggestion on Blizzard forum. So can anyone send by twitter ?

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:26 pm

Dandeleon wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:It's considered a big risk vs reward trinket. You will have the highest potential, but will also risk missing out on stuff. Same thing would have happened with Rune if you got your proc right when a boss would leap away. Everything you would have refreshed didn't get applied and you lost the whole proc.


My point is, with Rune "oh shit, I waste one proc". With Soul, "oh shit, 10s pressing buttons for absolute 0 dps". Much more painful, and a bigger impact in final dps.
I just want know if that is a design intent.

It was the design intent. It has a big reward but there is a big risk involved. At the very start of PTR people tried to cancel the buff early to make the explosion trigger on demand, and it was fixed to be un removable. If your next attack unleashed the damage there would be 0 risk with the trinket and it would be best no matter what (which is exactly what they didn't want to happen).

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby teddabear » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:29 am

I think rewarding people for playing well is a better design than rewarding people for being lucky.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:31 pm

How is "Your next attack does 10 seconds of damage + 35%" playing well? There is 0 skill involved. Even if it was that way it would still be based around luck. If you are energy starved when the proc happens and get no 4p procs your result will be pretty poor. If it procs right when you hit Incarnation and Berserk you are going to get a MASSIVE result. None of that is skill based.

And all top end ranks involve both skill and quite a bit of luck. That's the way the game works.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Kraineth » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:21 am

Copy Pasting my thoughts on soul cap from my guild's forums:

My issue with Soul cap is how horrible it can be for progression. Off the top of my head here are situations where a soul cap proc is 100% bad. (granted some of these are minor complaints and unlikely to be cause for a wipe if it happens to just 1 person)

- Getting tanks out of hands on kormrok
- Down phase of Killrogg (10 seconds of doing 0 DPS to adds that need to be getting killed as they come in
- Burning the correct Iskar Transition adds
- Trying to kill Xhul'horac imps quickly
- Bursting down the Dominator on Socrethar
- Burning Tyrant down in P2 while putting 0 DPS into the add

It's a great "DPS" trinket for sure, but it had potential to be terrible for progression either due to proccing while bursting down a priority target, or proccing and forcing 10 seconds of DPS to be split among targets that mean nothing (Iskar Transition trash)

The Majority of these issues would be alleviated by an on use effect, and would likely require it to be tuned down a little bit.

I am definitely going to miss having a strong on-use trinket for progression.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby peki » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:32 pm

Soul cap is adding to the risk v reward style we kind of had with rune in SoO, its making feral fun. This trinket was MADE for feral, whoever came up with the idea was thinking about us.

I am not stupid however, I realise the downside to it, for example Mannoroth at the start, theres nothing up for the explosion to hit if it procs on the first mob.

Could you swap trinkets on the pull so it puts it on internal gcd or at least ensures no proc on the pull?

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Polihayse » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:22 am

Honestly, there have been very few times in which i was not in range of a target to hit. The original problem of Soul Capacitor going off when you are out of range seems like it doesn't exist. Maybe for Kormrok when he first jumps away at the start, but that is all i can really imagine being a problem. Even with the firebombs on iron reaver, if i knew i had to be in range of something in the next 10 seconds then i would be able to get there. You can even close gaps between targets while casting healing touch and only really lose an auto attack or two and it should still be pretty effective. It doesn't seem high risk to me at all.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby teddabear » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:30 am

Tinderhoof wrote:How is "Your next attack does 10 seconds of damage + 35%" playing well? There is 0 skill involved. Even if it was that way it would still be based around luck. If you are energy starved when the proc happens and get no 4p procs your result will be pretty poor. If it procs right when you hit Incarnation and Berserk you are going to get a MASSIVE result. None of that is skill based.

And all top end ranks involve both skill and quite a bit of luck. That's the way the game works.


It fits in with the constant removal of skill from Feral that has been going on for the past year. Removal of trinket and potion snapshotting. Removal of ICD and On Use trinkets. The T18 set bonuses.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Chaiz » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:53 am

So, I managed to coin a heroic WF Soul Cap and I gotta say.. It's pretty freaking insane sometimes. In our normal Archimonde kill today I finished with 72k dps while second place was 52k (someone mentioned a bug with skada counting the absorbed damage as well, so I don't know since we didn't log the kill).
These logs are from our heroic Zakuun kill yesterday (literally the worst rng attemp, only 3 procs and I had to move to drop the waves on one of them): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MD ... e&source=6
On a previous attemp I managed to get 7 procs and the damage is just insane.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Zstriker » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:06 am

expect nerf of SC for sure, explosions are too powerfull, dealing millions of damage, being about ~20% of damage of total damage, on first place

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby inseedious » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:29 am

It has been said more than once: Skada doesn't properly work with Soul Capacitor. It wrongly counts the absorbed damage as well, so according to Skada your Soul Capacitor is about 100% more powerful than it really is.
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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:18 pm

Yeah, I eventually had to tell everyone in my raid over Mumble since I kept getting tells, "what is Spirit Eruption?!?" from basically everyone... lol

It is really good, though on the fights it works well on.
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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Ogreson » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:28 pm

Yeah the proc damage part is correctly stated in skada, just not the rest of your abilities. Wish they'd hurry up and fix it.

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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby Kojiyama » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:49 pm

Yeah, you get credit for the absorbed attacks as well as the explosion.
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Re: 6.2 Feral Discussion

Postby aggixx » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:32 pm

There's a bug with Soul Capacitor that's causing it to deal damage as if it was splitting between more targets than there actually is. My best guess is that its an issue with hostile but non-attackable enemies, there's a lot of both visible and invisible ones in raids. It should still be usable but it is definitely situationally worse than we thought it was until this is fixed.
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