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Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion and script

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:22 am

Leafkiller wrote:Since Thrash is a DoT, I wonder if it would be wort hardcasting at times to grab a DoC buff.

@aggixx, are you going to around tonight and/or tomorrow night?

This doesn't work the way you expect. Unlike Rake Thrashes first hit isn't considered a bleed. If you have 2 targets both of your DoC buffs will be consumed by the hits and the bleed will not be buffed.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Terias » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:14 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:Since Thrash is a DoT, I wonder if it would be wort hardcasting at times to grab a DoC buff.

@aggixx, are you going to around tonight and/or tomorrow night?

This doesn't work the way you expect. Unlike Rake Thrashes first hit isn't considered a bleed. If you have 2 targets both of your DoC buffs will be consumed by the hits and the bleed will not be buffed.



This statement isn't supported by my tests.

This was done naked on target dummies, I also hit 3 dummies with thrash at the same time.

Thrash alone was showing 916 dot ticks.

TFing and Thrashing that goes up to 1054 (15% increase).

DoCing and Thrashing showed 1145 (25% increase).

DoC and TF also stack (1.43% increase~).

The buff works on all targets that are hit, whether you have one or two stacks of DoC. I tested on 3 targets, all 3 were ticking for buffed damage. I would also burn a stack of DoC and tested whether it still buffed bleeds with just one stack, and it does.

Swipe also works with DoC in the same way.

If you hit two or more targets with Thrash or Swipe, it will consume both remaining stacks; if you Thrash or Swipe one target with DoC up, it will only consume one stack. So it's definitely a bug that DoC is being fully consumed on Thrash and Swipe - going to start a bug report on it on the forums, feel free to bump it.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:17 am

Leafkiller wrote:Since Thrash is a DoT, I wonder if it would be wort hardcasting at times to grab a DoC buff.

@aggixx, are you going to around tonight and/or tomorrow night?


Yep, I'll be on tonight.
Tinderhoof wrote:This doesn't work the way you expect. Unlike Rake Thrashes first hit isn't considered a bleed. If you have 2 targets both of your DoC buffs will be consumed by the hits and the bleed will not be buffed.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, charges should be based on when you execute an ability not anything else.

Thanks for the info Terias! Good information and glad you found that bug.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Terias » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:29 am

If the bug isn't fixed (like some other annoying bugs are currently), you can get around it by only buffing thrash with 1 stack of doc up.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:23 am

aggixx wrote:I don't know how you came to that conclusion, charges should be based on when you execute an ability not anything else.

Thanks for the info Terias! Good information and glad you found that bug.

Last I tested on the beta it was consuming both stacks and not buffing the bleed. Give that was a week or so ago, so they very likely fixed it. Yaa for slightly less broken mechanics.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:31 pm

@Leaf: I've been up since 2AM this morning, didn't exactly get the nap that I was hoping for, so I'm just going to hit the sack. Hopefully you'll be around sometime, after today I should be at a fairly normal sleep schedule and available most evenings (I have a raid on Wednesday, but otherwise really nothing til MoP).
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:52 am

I was watching a movie with my wife tonight. I will look for you over the weekend.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:37 pm

Checked in an Spell Data override for the Rake/Mangle/Ravage/Shred change since they weren't in the DBC data yet. Numbers on simulationcraft.org should reflect the changes soon.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:52 am

What we learned today/tonight (aggixx and me) some notes...
All testing done on a DoC SotF T14H profile

  1. Delay on additional energy consumption is not an issue for FB - energy is calculated when cast
  2. Additional energy consumption on FB is affected by Berserk (caps at 12.5)
  3. There is a (potential) bug when casting FB with OOC while energy capped (it could happen)
  4. You no longer get "More Powerful Spell" when clipping Rip with a weaker Rip. Only tested with a TFed Rip with Kiril proc, PvP trinket proc, Savage Roar, and a Potion. Not tested with DoC, but we suspect it won't be an issue.
  5. You cannot shorten a Savage Roar by recasting it.
  6. Cast a 5 point Savage Roars with <=6 seconds left is a dps up over an aggressive FB
  7. Trying to clip Rip at 4 seconds was a dps loss
  8. Current script rarely casts Rip with DoC (3-4 times in 7 1/2 minutes) - Rake is taking precedence

Next up - test clipping Rip on DoC to push the DoCed Rips much higher.


Edit - anyone who has ideas for what might improve the rotation, please let us know.
Edit2 - we did not discuss doing more with Thrash...
Edit3 - removed #9 per next post from aggixx.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:07 am

Leafkiller wrote:
  • Only use NS on Rip before BitW - 600dps increase

Realized I did the sim on this backwards. It's actually a DPS loss.

Leafkiller wrote:Edit2 - we did not discuss doing more with Thrash...


Noted.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:17 am

The 91% uptime on Rip surprised me as you know. I am theorizing that clipping SR instead of casting FB at times contributes to that - both because SR uses less energy and because it acts as a form of desync so we don't have it colliding with Rip as much.

Also, since we get 100% uptime for Rip during BitW, that 9% is higher when Rip is actually in the rotation.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:42 am

Leafkiller wrote:Also, since we get 100% uptime for Rip during BitW, that 9% is higher when Rip is actually in the rotation.


Actually 12% higher. Uptime outside of BitW would be 88%.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:51 am

We should recheck BitW - see if snapshots are still not being updated. If so, and the general idea of doing Rake + Rip on DoC can become Rake + Thrash during BitW.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 am

Just tested it, Rip still does not resnapshot from BitW or Bloodletting.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:03 am

aggixx wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:
  • Only use NS on Rip before BitW - 600dps increase

Realized I did the sim on this backwards. It's actually a DPS loss.

By the way, quite the long story, but this is actually a gain. :P
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Etapicx » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:56 pm

Some thing i've realized using your script is that like 9 out of 10 times, After i use Tiger's Fury the script is suggesting Rake on the OoC proc... Woulden't Thrash be better on the OoC proc together with the 15% buff from TF?
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:50 pm

Etapicx wrote:Some thing i've realized using your script is that like 9 out of 10 times, After i use Tiger's Fury the script is suggesting Rake on the OoC proc... Woulden't Thrash be better on the OoC proc together with the 15% buff from TF?


Probably, but the Thrash change was very recent and the focus now is on a level 90 script. I am not planning on optimizing the level 85 script at this point.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:07 pm

That's something that I've brought up, a lot of times it's using omen of clarity procs on things higher in the script that it really doesn't need to, the TF rake being a good example. It could instead just Thrash on the OOC and then Rake afterwards.

Things I've learned so far today/last night:
  • Hardcasting to DoC a rip is at least DPS neutral in the right situation. I imagine hardcasting to DoC your rip as you enter BitW if you need to is not a bad choice.
  • I tried an action list swap that would try to do the "pool to finisher, shred, shred, shred, HT, rake, rip" thing and it was pretty close to neutral. Probably has room for optimzation.
  • In the rebuild profile I'm working on, moving the aggressive FB (and TTD FB) up above the rake and OOC lines was a 100+ DPS gain. This prevents rake and ooc procs from sniping DoC stacks off of a FB. Furthermore, prioritizing OOC procs over TTD FB made no sense anyway; if the mob is going to die in <1 seconds then why the hell are you caring about DPE.

Edit: Derp, made a dumb mistake. Removed something about FB stuff.

@Leaf, not signed into WoW while I'm simming atm, you can bother me here or preferably in SimC IRC if you have time to go over stuff.

Alright, so I've got the rebuild profile (which is far far simplier) to about 275 DPS short of the current best. I have a couple things I want to try (like thrash tweaks and Rip BitW abuse) but I'm trying to get this profile up to the other one without using anything that's blatantly different than the other profile. Here's what I have currently:

http://pastebin.com/489xtGV7

Edit # I don't know: Just passed the old profile! I changed the shred condition at the end to be infinitely more aggressive: actions+=/shred,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.remains>1. There's probably more of a middleground to be found here.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:17 am

Too lazy to write something super comprehensive, but here's the change log I wrote for the checkin:

Druid:
Feral:
- Complete action list rewrite.
- Use thrash as filler at 5 CP
- Thrash on OOC more aggressively
- HT at 4 or 5 CP
- DoC + Pot Rip on BitW entry
- Regenerate 90 profiles.


Now that we've simplified things down, I can safely describe the DoC rotation as follows:
  • Cast healing touch if you have predatory swiftness up when you reach 4 or 5 combo points, use charges on:
    1. One charge of DoC on a 5 point finisher.
    2. One charge of DoC on rake, unless you already have a stronger rake on the target.
  • Cast healing touch if predatory swiftness will fall off in the next GCD, use charges on:
    1. One charge of DoC on rake, unless you already have a stronger rake on the target.
    2. One charge on whatever the rotation would otherwise dictate (most likely shred).
Last edited by aggixx on Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:18 am

@everyone who is following this discussion:

aggixx spent the day beating on the script and then another few hours with me this evening beating on it some more. We think the DoC+SotF rotation is very solid now - and actually playable. The sims have it close to 122k. It is optimized for Patchwerk stype fights and at least 1500 dps comes from taking advantage of the fact that extending Rip with FB during BitW no longer does a new snapshot of buffs, so the code gets a DoC+Potion buff up as soon as possible once the BitW phase is entered. If fight mechanics are such that it is not possible to keep Rip from falling off during BitW, then DoC will drop in value.

Next up aggixx is going to do some housekeeping (expect some posts from him) and then we will shift the focus to the other viable talents and talent combinations (FoN, HotW, NV). There are some rotation tweaks that will be needed for the non-SotF rotation, but not many (we optimized SotF by being very aggressive about casting 5 point finishers). There may be a couple of places that wil need to change to recognize the absence of DoC (I don't recall right now) but that will also be small. Mostly we will have to add in code for HotW to hit the cooldown, swap weapons and spam Wrath - probably at the start of the fight when Berserk and a potion are up. With the current scaling on HotW, that will probably be the highest dps option. Since the current simc work is being done with fights that are averaging 7.5 minutes, HotW will benefit from an almost ideal fight length. We will also need to test HotW on some 5 minute fights to see how it sims with a lower uptime.

Stay tuned as I think the rotations are just about ready.

Post script on Dream of Cenarius: Although we have simplified the logic of when to cast DoC quite a bit, there are still several cases in the code where we are checking to see if we will be overwriting a DoT with a more powerful DoT. Calculating that in game without an addon to help will be challenging. Jeshu has been helping on the Ovale front (see the Ovale thread) and Ovale will allow the feral script to include this logic. It is certainly something that can be done in other addons, but they will need to be enhanced for this (Badkitty, Weak Auras and Droodfocus come to mind as candidates to help with this). Excluding DoC, because of the lack of snapshotting during BitW, we will likely want to get a TF+Potion Rip up on the target as soon as we enter BitW (or slightly before BitW if you can be certain the Rip won't fall off before FB extends it).

Postscript on SotF: energy is king, and in order to get as much energy as possible we had to tweak the rotation to use combo points and to not waste them via shred spam. FB is cast whenever 5 combo points are reached and Rip has >6 seconds left. This allows very little time to get Rip back up and the sim now runs with a 91% uptime on Rip with the SotF+DoC profile. Anything higher than this is a DPS loss (at the very least, everything we tried to get Rip uptime higher than 91% was a dps loss). Players will probably be in the low 80s. We did fix the really painful part of the rotation where an aggressive FB caused Rip to be delayed into the cooldown of SR, but not in the way we expected to. It turns out that the solution is to cast SR rather than the aggressive FB (this is with 5 combo points) when SR is close to expiring. This satisfies SotF's mandate that we don't waste combo points, and removes the Rip/SR collision that is in the level 85 script.

We also hard-cast Thrash now (in place of a filler Shred when we have 5 combo points and Thrash has <6 seconds left). Thrash simply has a higher dpe than Shred on a single target as long as you don't clip it too much.

tldr: our rotation continues to be one of, if not the most complicated rotations in the game...

edit: aggixx posted while I was writing this...

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:23 am

It's ok, your post is better than mine anyway! Well, except for the nice DoC... "flow chart", for lack of a better term. Graphs and stuff inc.

Leafkiller wrote:Mostly we will have to add in code for HotW to hit the cooldown, swap weapons and spam Wrath - probably at the start of the fight when Berserk and a potion are up.

Unless you're talking about SimC code and not action list code, weapon swaps are NYI, as well as the active on HotW. Although you could test it by doing some sketchy things with custom use effects.

Edit, relevant:
03:45:13 reia the sim is meant to explore stuff
03:45:20 reia hotw active is something people want to explore
Last edited by aggixx on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Sorcerer » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:00 am

Incredible workout.

Anyway, something that I don't see being put up is how does the set bonus rip extension plays with clipping the SR/Rip or agressive FB.
Is the influence almost non existant or actually heavy rotation changing?

Since during BiTW FB does not snapshot current stats, we are pretty f*** in case there is encounter with long BiTW phase and target switching where rip falls off main target. Having TF for every return on boss is gonna be almost mandatory or instead of TF FB during Bitw we will be required to rip halfway instead...

Both pre 5.0 and current mechanic BiTW was/is flawed but I guess they were lazy to keep previous mechanic with exception of resnapshoting the stats of current PAST the previous rip countown when and where stats would resnapshot not during cast of FB but at the end of previous Rip which was extended by [new rip X time - (old rip time left)]. I hope I explained as clear as I could be.


Something that I cannot work is HOW TO simplify the rotation from blizzard PoV and what suggestions to make on bnet. This thing is just out of control.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:07 am

Well, I can run set bonus values for you after I'm done with Weights and Talents. I'm sure it has an impact, not sure how big. Regarding Rip snapshotting: It's just an oversight. They're not dumb enough to do it on purpose. Anyways, here's stat weights (SotF/DoC profile!):
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:36 am

Talent numbers:

DISCLAIMER: The rotation is not optimized for anything but Soul of the Forest and Dream of Cenarius, so these talent results are NOT completely accurate.

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Set Bonus numbers (these numbers remove 1 of the two bonuses to determine the value of the removed bonus):

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2-piece bonus: 0.819% DPS increase (988 DPS in BiS gear)
4-piece bonus: 1.898% DPS increase (2,266 DPS in BiS gear)
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:11 pm

aggixx wrote:Well, I can run set bonus values for you after I'm done with Weights and Talents. I'm sure it has an impact, not sure how big. Regarding Rip snapshotting: It's just an oversight. They're not dumb enough to do it on purpose. Anyways, here's stat weights (SotF/DoC profile!):
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Will this change Hit/Exp any:
One stack of Dream of Cenarius (damage) is being consumed on an ability miss. Is this working as intended?
Is Wild Charge (Caster Form) intended to trigger GCD?


Yes and yes.

I am guessing not much in the actual number value, but it means for sure that we MUST be Hit/Exp capped for a DoC build.

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