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Question about DoC

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Question about DoC

Postby Arnathis » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:17 pm

Are we hardcasting HT when FS and NS arent available? I'm trying to figure out how some people are getting an average of 48k on rip ticks to my 39k average. Here's a link to my logs for tonight, the elegon kill is heroic whereas will is normal. Would appreciate some help here.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/55uf ... 18&e=10376

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qx0o ... 21&e=17785

The second link is to another ferals log for the same fight. Trying to see where hes getting this damage from. This same feral was getting the same rip ticks on a Heroic Feng parse I saw whereas I'm still getting 38-39k ticks.

Thanks for your help in advance.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby RareBeast » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:09 am

I don't know if there is an easy way to tell from the logs, but it is possible he was more successful in having his Rips increased by DoC or in managing to maintain a max power rip during BitW (seeing it doesn't dynamically update with procs).

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Jaymzhendo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:40 am

In addition to the better extensions of a buffed Rip during BitW, you also have to consider the fight you're talking about. Will has a mechanic that increases damage during a portion of the fight. While yes you picked another Feral who had a fight time similar to yours you also have to account for the fact that maybe he got more Rips up during Titan Gas than you did, or that he got Rip on multiple targets during that time.

It would be far better to compare on Feng using a simple Expression Editor "script" - I wrote a very generic one for self examination of my usage of DoC - however please keep in mind that I have no other feral in my raid, nor any other druid doing any kind of Feral moves. I mention this solely because I noticed that Robo has a Resto Druid in his raid that does early damage in feral form which at first threw me off when I ran this script on him.

Code: Select all
sourceName="Arnathis" and type=6 and spellid=1079 or type=6 and spellid=1822 or type=4 and spellid=108381 or type=4 and spellid=5217 or spell="Savage Roar" or spell="Ferocious Bite"


Of course when you go to do his you'll want to replace his name where yours is, and verify first that someone else isn't using Rake or FeroBite - if others are casting those two moves you can edit the script to only show the person your looking for by adding -- sourceName="NAME" and -- before that spell in the script - to better illustrate this I'll change FeroBite to only show yours

Code: Select all
sourceName="Arnathis" and type=6 and spellid=1079 or type=6 and spellid=1822 or type=4 and spellid=108381 or type=4 and spellid=5217 or spell="Savage Roar" or sourceName="Arnathis" and spell="Ferocious Bite"


Hope this helps
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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Jaymzhendo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:54 am

In addition to all of that

I went back and looked at both yours and his most recent Feng kills - keep in mind also that he has Synapse Springs and Flashing Steel Talisman which allow him to purposely buff his bleeds where you have random proc chance trinkets which do not. This is especially beneficial for the Rip just before BitW.
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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Beatrix » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:39 pm

Hi all ferals!

I have been away from the game for the last and just recently got back in to playing feral and whoa! is there a lot to catch up on. I just hit 90 last night and was wondering what is the verdict on which talents are best for the most DPS. I understand some are situational and all but is DoC still the best option or is Nature's Vigil easier and better for pure DPS now that HoTW has been nerfed. I know it will feel weird to cast spells during my dps rotation... yeah.

And if DoC is more DPS is it significantly more?

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:34 pm

DoC is a very hefty increase. However it comes with a hefty price tag in the difficulty level. NV is pretty close to HotW (passive only). HotW is the easiest talent as you don't have to do anything and you get a stat buff. Personally NV to me is boring and I don't really like it for Feral. It is still viable though.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby kaiadam » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:26 pm

It's very up in the air.

On paper, DoC is the highest damaging talent ... on a no movement patchwerk fight, none of which have existed since the WotLK incarnation of the namesake.

(It's actually surprising how much of a boost simulationcraft tells me; I sim 82k with HoTW and 87k with DoC.)

On the other hand, it's wickedly difficult to pull off for the vast majority of fights. Maybe it's because I don't run with Ovale or any other predictive/"tell me what to do" addons, but I have trouble optimizing my DoC damage on a target dummy much less a raid boss.

Objectively, I believe I'm easily in the top 0.1% of players skill-wise, and I can't even perform my non-DoC at 80% effectiveness while dancing on Will of the Emperors much less an effective DoC rotation (which explains my abysmal parse on that fight. Either that, or the fact that every feral above me is glued on a boss the entire fight instead of running around and killing every add like I am for our guild's strat -_-).

Furthermore, the other aspects of HoTW muddle up the issue even further. Under the on-use portion, ferals have access to quite literally the best aoe and healing in the game. Both of which are fairly important, perhaps vitally more so, than slightly more single target dps in progression.

For example, HoTW tranquility heals for about 4 million hp in the space of 6 seconds, and I believe hurricane maxes out somewhere around 600k dps (both for my stats, which may be up to 30% higher than an entry level raider's).

Anyway, long story short: I actually advise taking HoTW for progression despite being the lesser dps talent in theory. It makes your rotation significantly simpler, which means you have more attention to pay to mechanics (lets be honest, 95%+ of everyone's wipes on bosses are mechanic failures and not wiping due to enrage) and some clutch utility you can bust out when either aoe or shit hits the fan. Once everything is on farm and you're just going for the parses, then DoC might pull out ahead, but no one is at that point yet.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:10 pm

Sounds like you are using the stock simc script if your sims are showing HotW that far behind DoC. Grab the script I posted in the "Experimental simulationcraft script" thread.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby TheLOOGE » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:11 am

Is it possible that someone could run a simc of the final tier at this point? I am inclined to believe that while DoC is, on paper, the highest DPS talent in our final tier, in practice, I'm just not convinced anyone here can consistently pull it off on every fight in MV, leave alone the rest of this raiding tier. Not that I doubt your abilities or "skill," but for fights like Will or Spirit Kings with a gross amount of movement and awareness mechanics, I just don't buy it's viability in those scenarios. I would think for fights such as Will or Elegon specifically, with burst DPS windows and a veritable fuck ton of movement (titan gas on Will or higher stacks of draw power + final burn phase of Elegon) NV/Inc pull out ahead of DoC/SotF.

In fact, could we just say that unless the fight is a stand-still Patchwerk style fight (which as already mentioned, hasn't really existed since the encounter of the same name -- maybe Deathbringer Saurfang), that DoC is inferior to HotW or NV?

Incidentally, I wasn't aware ferals were still using HotW after its nerf. Is it still viable to wrath spam (casting hurricane?) or are they using it simply for the static 6% agility bonus?

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Sorcerer » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:46 am

^ to above

This week feng HC proved me how bad NV is. I believe I have currently highest Sotf/NV log on WoL at 110k dps with fuck ton AOE dps lined with TotT/pot/NV (800k extra dmg, 1/60 of my total dmg came from 1 tricks), while people with DoC spec were still ahead of me, slightly but ye. Granted I still miss a lot of gear to those ahead of me on logs but I guess I could have done more with DoC.

DoC is waay too sustained if well played, although if you really need burst in certain phase, go for NV. Currently in MV there isnt such fight though. Elegon sparks/p3 is walk in the park to even mention.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:40 pm

TheLOOGE wrote:Is it possible that someone could run a simc of the final tier at this point?

It's been done and Aggixx has posted it here a few times. DoC is still the best.

I am inclined to believe that while DoC is, on paper, the highest DPS talent in our final tier, in practice, I'm just not convinced anyone here can consistently pull it off on every fight in MV, leave alone the rest of this raiding tier. Not that I doubt your abilities or "skill," but for fights like Will or Spirit Kings with a gross amount of movement and awareness mechanics, I just don't buy it's viability in those scenarios.

DoC does raise the bar quite a bit. It's something I fought for in the beta for months. I posted in the main forums and spoke out about it on the Team Waffle podcast. It was though exactly what Blizzard wanted. I think between the bugs that still plague the talent and the required accompaniments and the lack of planning with Feral it did go farther then they expected. I like the idea of DoC as an extra challenge, but I really wish they had given it some attention instead of throwing it together.

I would think for fights such as Will or Elegon specifically, with burst DPS windows and a veritable fuck ton of movement (titan gas on Will or higher stacks of draw power + final burn phase of Elegon) NV/Inc pull out ahead of DoC/SotF.

Actually DoC lends itself better then any talent for low up time fights for the same reason Mastery is our best stat now. When you are not on the boss the only thing doing damage is your bleeds. Even on the lower uptime fights its easy to get a DoC'd Rake up all the time. Rake is already our #1 damaging ability. Now with Will if your raid is having you handle adds they are doing it wrong. The adds should be handled by the ranged only. Because of the 500k hits you can sustain its wasting the raids time for you to not be 100% on the boss. As the fastest class in the game, and the down right worst at target swaps not having you on Will dodging, your raid is just throwing damage out the window.

In fact, could we just say that unless the fight is a stand-still Patchwerk style fight (which as already mentioned, hasn't really existed since the encounter of the same name -- maybe Deathbringer Saurfang), that DoC is inferior to HotW or NV?

As you mentioned Saurfang, Chimaron, Baleroc, Ultraxion, Gara'jal are all fights which you can have 100% uptime on the boss with little movment. Having to run out for 3-5 seconds does not stop the fight from being a patchwork style fight. Again if your raid is asking you to kill adds on Gara...throwing damage out the window. Regardless HotW or NV may work for your raid for nich stuff. For our Heroic Elegon kill last week I took HotW. Not because it gave me the best damage (I went from 5th to dead last) but because I could take some pressure off the healers during the final transition. Once guilds get some gear Elegon is not a huge burn fight. On Heroic you will find that killing the energy pulses are way more importent then the final burn. However healing is pretty brutal. Also the final burn takes around 45-60 seconds. Your damage drop off after Berserk drops off is VERY steep, so 15 seconds of amazing doesn't sustain over a full minute.

Incidentally, I wasn't aware ferals were still using HotW after its nerf. Is it still viable to wrath spam (casting hurricane?) or are they using it simply for the static 6% agility bonus?

Hurricane is still VERY powerful. However there aren't very many spots that have only 1 add burn phase so its use is limited. It can be useful on Elegon for add clean up and then a Tranq, but it won't be amazing numbers like before.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby aggixx » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:58 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Incidentally, I wasn't aware ferals were still using HotW after its nerf. Is it still viable to wrath spam (casting hurricane?) or are they using it simply for the static 6% agility bonus?

Hurricane is still VERY powerful. However there aren't very many spots that have only 1 add burn phase so its use is limited. It can be useful on Elegon for add clean up and then a Tranq, but it won't be amazing numbers like before.

I would still say it's amazing numbers, like Kaiadam has said, HotW is still one of the best AoEs in the game. The problem is that the talent is very "one trick pony"-esque.
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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:00 pm

As posted by kaiadam in the Elegon strategy thread, HotW wrath spam is very effective for the sparks, so he uses HotW for the first spark wave and then uses it again in the final phase for add cleanup and tranq to help the healers.

The dps output for HotW wrath spam is comparable to feral dps post nerf, so the decision to use it is based on the situation rather than being a dps cooldown.

The most up to date simc results are posted in the "Experimental simulation script" thread. These are all Patchwerk style runs.

I prefer HotW over DoC for short-lived adds like the sparks since it removes any timing issues on DoC and gives you the passive stat bonus on all of the sparks.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:08 pm

aggixx wrote:I would still say it's amazing numbers, like Kaiadam has said, HotW is still one of the best AoEs in the game. The problem is that the talent is very "one trick pony"-esque.


I would describe NV as "one trick pony"-esque more than HotW. At least HotW gives a constant dps buff due to the passive stat bonus. NV is like an on-use trinket, It is great if you can sync it to periodic burn phases, but otherwise it is a pain to leverage. My big issue with DoC with any sort of target switching is the difficulty in using it for Rips. Take out the DoCed Rip damage, and then compare DoC's damage to the passive HotW damage...

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:18 pm

Leafkiller wrote:As posted by kaiadam in the Elegon strategy thread, HotW wrath spam is very effective for the sparks, so he uses HotW for the first spark wave and then uses it again in the final phase for add cleanup and tranq to help the healers.

It is much more effective for Energy Charges for 10 man then 25. While still effective to a point the duration of HotW lasts for only 3 waves. For me it did make my Energy Charge damage more consistant, but between the attempts where I was using DoC there wasn't much difference in over all damage to Energy Charges. What made the difference and saved the kill was the Tranq just after the adds were cleared up for the final burn (4.5 million healing). My damage to Elegon went down dramaticly over DoC (even Weapon swapped, pot'd Wrath spam for the end). On heroic though getting as many Energy Charges as possible and clean transitions is the key. If you survive to the final burn it really isn't that hard.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:23 pm

aggixx wrote:I would still say it's amazing numbers, like Kaiadam has said, HotW is still one of the best AoEs in the game. The problem is that the talent is very "one trick pony"-esque.

I was talking about HotW over all. The Hurrican damage is amazing. But taking and using HotW to Wrath spman will not give the hugely amazing numbers it did before on a single target fight.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby kaiadam » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:12 pm

Re: Elegon

The thing with energy charges is that any dots on them keep on ticking on the dead mob and still counts for damage until the next wave is spawned.

So if you're doing about the same damage in cat form vs wrathspamming energy charges on a meter, then chances are you're doing roughly double your cat damage by wrathing in terms of actual damage dealt to the charge while it's alive.

HoTW wrath is basically the equivalent dps of a fully dott'ed/ramped up single target dps which is impossible to maintain with the rapid target switching in phase 2 elegon.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:41 pm

kaiadam wrote:Re: Elegon

The thing with energy charges is that any dots on them keep on ticking on the dead mob and still counts for damage until the next wave is spawned.

So if you're doing about the same damage in cat form vs wrathspamming energy charges on a meter, then chances are you're doing roughly double your cat damage by wrathing in terms of actual damage dealt to the charge while it's alive.

HoTW wrath is basically the equivalent dps of a fully dott'ed/ramped up single target dps which is impossible to maintain with the rapid target switching in phase 2 elegon.

Do you have any log data to back this up? That is behavior I have never seen before. Regardless I am only putting Rake and on a lucky timed OOC proc Thrash on Elegon and the Energy Charge. The rest of my energy is spent on Shreds, SR, or FB as allows. I am skeptical the remaining tick or two of my Rake will double my damage on a dead target.

I also still have to attack 3 Energy Charges in Catform as HotW only lasts for 3 of the 6 waves we see in the first P2 so I am doing much lower damage for half of the phase. If the bleed damage is indeed being tracked on a dead target isn't that also going to be skuing the numbers?

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby kaiadam » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:28 pm

It's hard to show with logs as the damage just keeps on ticking, as I said, and there is no "death" line for each charge that I could tell.

However, it's incredibly easy to check when you're next in combat with elegon - just turn on damage scrolling on mob targets and watch the yellow numbers pop up over the energy focus' path long after the charge is dead.

Very apparent on the first couple of waves of charges - they're all dead in like 6 seconds and yet they keep taking damage for 10-15 more seconds. Edit: I just reviewed the elegon kill video I have in my sig, and if you fast forward to the 2 min mark you can see in the next 10 seconds some yellow damage popping up over clearly dead charges.

For reference, the same thing happens with the pillars that are at 1 hp but their "partner" isn't dead yet so they can't fully despawn - you can keep doing damage to that 1 hp pillar and it'll show up in yellow text/logs/meters but it's all padding damage.

(You can find another example of this behavior on the first boss in Scarlet Monastery - Thalanos or something? He summons a wave of 5 argent crusaders that continue to take aoe damage as they lie dead on the ground until the next wave spawns.)

---

And while I did exaggerate a bit with the double damage part, you can see how if hotw wrath spam approximates straight up, fully dotted, single target dps, it would be doing significantly more damage in an 8 second window to a clean target swap? (at least in my experience, I do a lot of "dead charge padding" as cat - I always thrash on the spawn to hit 3 charges, then rake the two closest, which is still the best way to damage them in a 25m setting imo, but results in a fairly large amount of meter padding, which is why I believe that if I do the same damage as cat vs wrath, the wrath is doing about twice the effective damage.)

Cat damage is going to be missing rip, sunder, 4% physical, and a fair bit of shreds, whereas wrathspam is only going to be missing 5% spelldamage - although both the 4% physical and 5% spelldamage debuffs can be applied by aoe from a rogue or dk. The presence or absence of tiger's fury on an add also makes damage pretty uneven as you stated earlier.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby CalliatTN » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:08 am

More questions aboue DoC rotation:

So i decided to go an install ovale again, because i don't really think that i myself know the priority anymore. By myself, on good tries i can keep rip and rake DoC buffed about 80% of the time, if not more, which i assumed would be the way to go, but ovale suggests to kinda give zero fucks about lining that up, and just buffing FB's and shreds. This results in about 5-10k dps increase on a target dummy, which baffles me. How come keeping my two most powerful abilities (rip and rake) fully buffed is a DPS loss, compared to just going with the flow?
It's not like i lost major uptime or anything, about 86% on rip and 95% on rake when buffing them solely.

Is it perhaps the use of trash during OoC which boosts my dmg that much?

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby TheLOOGE » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:22 am

So you keep Rip up 86% of the time and buff over 80% of your Rips with DoC? Seems like an astonishing feat. However, I would likely point the results of your training dummy tests to the fact that either a) you are going in with self buffs only, which lack other melee buffs such as Might which lends another 3,000 Mastery (bleeds), which is far and away our best secondary stat. You're also missing 10% AP (bleeds) and 10% haste, which lends to more shreds and easier extends on Rip duration, Flask, food, pretty much all raid buffs. So yeah, your bleeds will come out lesser than what they should be, making DoC appear to be not as attractive while testing on the dummy. Or b) you're reforging/gearing for another secondary stat other than mastery/crit. These two things play a significant role in your damage output, so it's important to consider them (or in this case, the lack of them) when testing your rotation on a test dummy.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:12 pm

Actually Looge what Calliat is seeing is correct regardless of buffs. The big key is the SotF talent. Due to the energy refund making finishers almost free it becomes a DPS loss to use any combo point generating move when you already have 5 combo points. In the past we would just keep shredding till it was time to refresh. Now as soon as you get to 5 you should use a finishing move. Even with Rip at 6 seconds its still a dps up to hit FB at 5 points. So yes, using FB at the cost of Rip uptime is a dps gain. Seems counter intuitive cause it is.

We had the least amount of attention of the beta both mechanics and rotation wise. While the rotation changed some, they didn't do a lot of testing with it, and kinda threw it together to "Make it harder". As a result Rake replaced Shred until a few folks said "Uh this is bad", we still have NS shifting Feral and Guardian druids out of form, and PS'd heals still kick off a 1.5 GCD. I think the reason we are being shoved to the basement of the attention pile is we arn't stuck at the bottom of the barrel like our Moonkin bothers. It sucks, but it is what it is.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby CalliatTN » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:15 am

Well i guess it does make sense in some way, that not instantly using every 5 CPs on a finisher is a DPS loss, it just feels really weird that keeping rip and rake buffed all the time at the cost of a few FB's and Trash is such a loss...
To keep such high uptime on buffed rip and rake, i hardly get any FB's in out of BitW. But still, it would feel far more natural if the case was that keeping the bleeds maxed at all times would be the way to go as a feral. Guess not. QQ.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Ampzilla » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:58 am

@Leafkiller

I was actually going to ask about this in your script thread, but here is probably fine as well. I felt like FB was being suggested WAY to aggressively and when I went with the flow and listened to Ovale (with your script) I noticed there was no way I could keep up a Rip with my current haste/crit levels. For my sanity I started ignoring Ovale when it suggested FB outside of BitW (except when Berserk was up) because it just seemed impossible to keep SR and Rip going as optimally as possible.

If SR and Rip both have roughly 10 seconds (even 12 seconds) is it still best to FB? I understand it's okay for Rip to fall off for a couple of ticks, but doesn't this just set up for even more problems? I then have to use a non-optimal low CP SR just so we aren't sitting there with no Rip for as long as it takes to get a 4-5 CP SR and then another 5 CP for Rip? This is my first expansion as raiding kitty, I've always been a Bear, so sorry if this is a noobish question.

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Re: Question about DoC

Postby Terias » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:27 am

Your question was actually covered by tinderhoof, because of sotf it is a dps loss to sit on 5cp to keep optimal rip uptimes.

You'll lose some dot uptime, but you will have more doc procs and more energy gains by using more finishers.

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