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rip/rake uptimes

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby irollswirldruid » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:27 am

@viray ok awesome, that really helps with understanding other posts ha. and i guess ill give droodfocus a shot too, been using it for power bar and other miscellaneous things just never for timers, ill see what i can do with it.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby irollswirldruid » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:29 am

anyone else having trouble configuring droodfocus? i configure it and then it takes a crap on itself and all my bars/icons become disfigured

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Nepplol » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:00 am

With Ovale and the rip/rake ratio, is it possible to just display the 2 ratio box in the interface ?

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Konungr » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:49 am

Leafkiller wrote:
Konungr wrote:Luckily, with DroodFocus, each of the bubbles (Red - SR, Yellow - TF, Blue - DoC/NV) are all over 12% damage modifiers, the only problem now boils down to procs: Weapon Enchant, Trinket, Engineering, Agi Potion. If there were a way that we could calculate how much of a damage increase these things were, we'd be completely set. I'll get in contact with Meranannon (author of DroodFocus) and see what we have to do about setting up a Lua script or additional bubbles for some of these procs. (I requested the bubble feature for Thrash already, since it's part of our single-target rotation now too.


My Ovale script is taking into account weapon procs. This is definitely an limitation with what Droodfocus has done. When you contact Meranannon, the key thing that we need to know is not what buffs were used on the existing Rip/Rake, but rather how much of a DPS increase is it overwrite them at any given time - which is simply a numerical number. In Ovale we are calculating this number as a ratio: expected tick damage/current tick damage.

Also the rules for Rip and Rake early clipping are very different.

For Rake we will clip at any time if we can get at least a 12% damage increase.

For Rip (assume 5 combo points for these rules):
1. If we are in the BitW phase and the target is going to live for at least 30 seconds more, and we can get at least a 14% damage increase, then use Rip instead of FB. This is being opportunistic because FB does not do a stat refresh on Rip.
2. If we are outside of the BitW phase and we have DoC up and Rip has less than 6 seconds left and clipping it early will not result in weaker ticks, then clip it early. This takes advantage of the idea that a DoC proc is usually a dps up for Rip ticks, and protects against the times where other procs/buffs have resulted in a very high damage Rip.

We measured these in Simulationcraft, but there is a limitation in Simulationcraft in that it does not take into account AP when calculating tick damage. If we ever put support for AP into Simulationcraft we probably will be able to refine the script a little more.

The script also, of course, continues to try to refresh Rip and Rake during the last tick with some modifiers for TF, Berserk etc. These actions are largely unchanged from Cata.


Viray wrote:BitW = Blood in the Water. Our old talent, which in MoP is baked in to feral spec. It allows you to referesh Rip with Ferocious Bite when the target is below 25% hp.

@Leaf: Droodfocus already has this indicator you're speaking of. Dunno if it's brackets are 12% etc though.


DroodFocus has 3 indicators along the bottom of each DoT (excluding Thrash, but I am working on getting that incorporated), these three indicators cover 4 buffs: Savage Roar (30% Damage), Tiger's Fury (15% Damage), and Dream of Cenarius/Nature's Vigil (25/20% Damage respectively, these are both on the same color bubble, since only 1 can be active). Therefore, whenever you can apply a Rake or Rip with at least one more color enabled, it is a DPS increase to overwrite.

The one thing I would like to work with Leaf, Tinder, Aggixx on is finding a rough Agility/Attack Power/Mastery value that will increase the damage by that 12% (14% in the case of Rip) and see if we can't comb the list of procs (Weapon, Trinket, Engineering, Potion, etc) to find which ones would result in that 12% Damage increase. Once we have a value (and list of procs), we can add that functionality to DroodFocus as well.

I have Ovale and your script running, but I don't check it much. I normally only refer to Ovale when something in our Priority list changes and our rotation get tweaked. For the most part I'm comfortable with the rotation and don't have problems knowing which button to push and when. (I do refer every feral I come across that is having issues here and to download it :D )

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Konungr » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:54 am

irollswirldruid wrote:anyone else having trouble configuring droodfocus? i configure it and then it takes a crap on itself and all my bars/icons become disfigured


I know if you try to configure while in combat, it will shit on itself, but other than that, I have no problems. I've been using DroodFocus for several years now, if you would like, contact me directly, here or in-game (Konungr @US-Illidan Horde) or make a post over in the UI/Addon section and I can help work you through it. You can also check out my UI Thread over on Tukui.org (link in my signature), I have all of my settings and whatnot there, and I try to keep it up to date (I need to update it again, will try to get to that this weekend)

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Viray » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:58 am

@Leaf: Update your Droodfocus & check again. I wasn't talking about three collored dots in the bottom of each icon - rake and rip both have an indicator in the upper right corner, which can be blank, red or green. I guess they're doing exactly what you'd like them to do, based on color changes I've noticed when my trinkets etc. proc occured:)
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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:44 pm

Nepplol wrote:With Ovale and the rip/rake ratio, is it possible to just display the 2 ratio box in the interface ?

The script is not coded for that right now. To do that requires an additional checkbox and a check on the main rotation display. It is very simple to do.

Gurrshael wrote:It's not that hard to get the exact number of a running rip/rake's tick damage or its predicted damage based on current buffs in WoW. I can post here the code if you are interested.


That is already coded in Ovale. Since not everyone uses Ovale, it would be useful for other addons to have a similar capability since not everyone uses Ovale with my script.

Viray wrote:@Leaf: Droodfocus already has this indicator you're speaking of. Dunno if it's brackets are 12% etc though.

Actually Droodfocus does not have the indicator that is needed to properly execute the rotation. This is one of the points I tried to make in my last post. We (the players) don't care about the individual buffs, we care about the aggregate damage level, and more specifically about the ratio between the current damage level and the predicted damage level should we clip at any given moment. If you want to see what I am talking about, grab my Ovale script, enable the check box that shows the Rip/Rake ratios and go to town on a target dummy. You will see numbers that show the percent increase/decrease for clipping Rip and Rake at any given moment. For example, you will often see the Rip ratio up by 20 every time you add a combo point. It is expressed as a percent (multiplied by 100) so a 12% damage increase is 112.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Viray » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:10 pm

Well but the mechanic behind that indicator is already in place, so all you have to do is tweak the numbers with DF creator - so you're more than halfway done :)
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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Meranannon » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:39 am

Hi !

I have carefully read all the thread, i'm on the way to adjust numbers in DF.
But i want to share with you how DF calculate "power dot". To perhaps improve things.

each rip and rake (and trash in my current dev version) store 4 variables when the debuff was applied.

- Power attack, calculated like this :
base, positiveBuff, negativeBuff = UnitAttackPower("player")
puissance = base + positiveBuff + negativeBuff -- Real power attack
mastery=GetCombatRating(26)/10000 -- Mastery rating, not actually real % but i don't care
final=puissance+(puissance*mastery) -- This is how i take into account mastery, if i got 29000 PA and 5200 mastery rating, the power stored for the dot is 44080

- state of buffs (true or false), respectively for:
savage roar
tiger fury
dream of cenarius/nature vigil

And to calculate dot's power, i do this :

dotPA = saved power attack

finalPower = dotPA -- Power without gain from buff

if saved savage roar is true -> finalPower = finalPower + (dotPA*30%)
if saved tiger fury is true -> finalPower = finalPower + (dotPA*15%)
if saved dream of cenarius is true -> finalPower = finalPower + (dotPA*25%)

I do the same calcul for current player power and compare number to color indicator.
Currently I compare numbers without ratio. I'll want to change that with a ratio.

plyPower = calculated player "power"
dotPower = calculated dot "power"
ratio = (plyPower - dotPower) / dotPower

And if ratio<0, i do a red dot
if ratio>=0 and ratio<12, i do a yellow dot
if ratio>=12, i do a green dot

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Konungr » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:24 am

Ahaha, I recruited Meranaanon into the FluidDruid Forums, Waffles for Konungr!

As a side note, if there is anyway to actually code it, there is a slight problem with the calculations for Dream of Cenarius and Nature's Vigil. While DoC is a 25% Damage increase, Nature's Vigil is only a 20% increase in damage, so if you are using Nature's Vigil, there would potentially be a 5% discrepancy in the calculations for the PowerDot, which could cause the Indicator to be Green when it actually means Yellow. Not sure if there is a way in your code to keep them on the same indicator (Blue) but have them differentiate between the 20 and 25% Buffs.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Gurrshael » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:58 am

Meranannon wrote:Hi !

I have carefully read all the thread, i'm on the way to adjust numbers in DF.
But i want to share with you how DF calculate "power dot". To perhaps improve things.

each rip and rake (and trash in my current dev version) store 4 variables when the debuff was applied.

- Power attack, calculated like this :



You don't explicitly need to track damage buffs like TF, SR. You can use UnitDamage() which does it for you. The only thing that needs to be explicitly tracked is DoC.

This is what I use in my addon for calculating Rip/Rake power (it returns the actual damage of a bleed tick):
Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
function FBNLite:GetBleedAbilityDamageCoefficient()
    -- various buffs that (de)buff all (physical) damage (Tiger's Fury, Savage Roar...)
    local _, _, _, _, _, _, damageCoeff = UnitDamage("player");
    local masteryCoeff = 1 + GetMastery() / 8 * 0.2504

    -- Dream of Cenarius
    local docCoeff = 1
    if (FBNLite:GetDoCStacks() > 0) then
        docCoeff = 1.25
    end

    local result = masteryCoeff * damageCoeff * docCoeff
    return result
end

function FBNLite:GetRakePower()
    local AP = UnitAttackPower("player")
    local bleedCoeff = FBNLite:GetBleedAbilityDamageCoefficient()
    -- power of a single tick
    local rakePower = bleedCoeff * (99 + 0.3 * AP)
    return rakePower
end

function FBNLite:GetRipPower()
    local AP = UnitAttackPower("player")
    local bleedCoeff = FBNLite:GetBleedAbilityDamageCoefficient()
    local cp = GetComboPoints("player")
    -- power of the complete rip divided by the number of ticks (8)
    local ripPower = bleedCoeff * (900 + cp * (2560 + 0.3872 * AP)) / 8
    return ripPower
end

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby raffy » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:11 pm

In my sim, I've been experimenting with computing the clip multiplier relative to a future application (like at the time of expiration or one cat GCD or time until energy has regenerated, whichever is greater), not the current time.

Since, if you have a nasty Rake up, but your potion or trinkets are gonna fade in a few seconds, it might be only be a 5% gain now, or even a DPS loss, but in a few seconds, a new Rake after expiration will be shit compared to what you could of applied with your trinkets still active.

Also, I'm using slightly more aggressive logic for Rake when I have 1 DoC charge (and less than 5 cp), rather than 2.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:21 pm

raffy wrote:In my sim, I've been experimenting with computing the clip multiplier relative to a future application (like at the time of expiration or one cat GCD or time until energy has regenerated, whichever is greater), not the current time.

Since, if you have a nasty Rake up, but your potion or trinkets are gonna fade in a few seconds, it might be only be a 5% gain now, or even a DPS loss, but in a few seconds, a new Rake after expiration will be shit compared to what you could of applied with your trinkets still active.

Also, I'm using slightly more aggressive logic for Rake when I have 1 DoC charge (and less than 5 cp), rather than 2.


I have thought about trying to peek ahead a little, but some things are hard to guarantee since so many things can occur in a fight, and there is also the question of complexity when your logic starts taking into account specific pieces of gear.

I have not tried to do anything with single charge DoCs on Rake as you describe. Are you using the criteria similar to the Rip extension code we have where you will extend a Rake if the expect tick damage is greater than or equal to the current (vs. the current Rake logic where we only clip early if we know it will be at least a 12% dps up)?

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby raffy » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:44 pm

Yeah, under normal conditions I'm using 12% on Rip and Rake, just copied from your research. I'll post the other logic when I get home from work.

The lookahead was a gain for me (and was slightly tricky to implement efficiently), however my conclusion is based on my own gear/race/professions (for DoC), not t14-heroic/troll/eng/inscr.

Strange things happen during agi gains because it typically provokes a Rake clip immediately, and then again on your next DoC gain. Since Xuen is 15 and Bottle is 20, and Rake lasts 15 sec, if you DoC clip after the first clip, by only checking the current modifier, you won't refresh Rake again until the gain fades.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby inkryptic » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:04 pm

Any chance of someone throwing their Droodfocus config file up somewhere? I've messed with it some, but to be honest, I give up after about 10 mins of trying to get it configured. If I could start with a baseline from one of you guys that would be a big help.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Mendol » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:07 am

@Gurrshael: I couldn't figure out what was behind your "GetMastery()" function so i'm using
Code: Select all
MasteryMultiplier = 1.2504 + (GetCombatRating(CR_MASTERY)/19175)


So what are the opinions of crit differences and re-applying?

It doesn't move a bunch (with all my buffs up--potion, windsong crit, trinket--I think it moves about from 33% to 41%) so the only time I can see reapplying making sense is on execute range rip.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:07 am

Mendol wrote:@Gurrshael: I couldn't figure out what was behind your "GetMastery()" function so i'm using
Code: Select all
MasteryMultiplier = 1.2504 + (GetCombatRating(CR_MASTERY)/19175)


So what are the opinions of crit differences and re-applying?

It doesn't move a bunch (with all my buffs up--potion, windsong crit, trinket--I think it moves about from 33% to 41%) so the only time I can see reapplying making sense is on execute range rip.


I wish I could sim that. It sounds like it is not enough though, at least on a 7.5 minute fight.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby raffy » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:24 am

Mendol wrote:@Gurrshael: I couldn't figure out what was behind your "GetMastery()" function so i'm using
Code: Select all
MasteryMultiplier = 1.2504 + (GetCombatRating(CR_MASTERY)/19175)



The 25.04% mastery comes from 4800 base mastery rating.

Mastery Rating per % at 90 = 191.693291
(4800 / 25.04 => 191.69329)

MasteryMultiplier = 1 + (4800 + GetCombatRating(CR_MASTERY)) / 19169.3291

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Mendol » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:19 am

raffy wrote:Mastery Rating per % at 90 = 191.693291
(4800 / 25.04 => 191.69329)

MasteryMultiplier = 1 + (4800 + GetCombatRating(CR_MASTERY)) / 19169.3291

Ah! thanks for that! i was just spitballing the points per percent because I couldn't find it listed anywhere in my drunken haze last night.

Leafkiller wrote:I wish I could sim that. It sounds like it is not enough though, at least on a 7.5 minute fight.

Yeah, the windsong +Crit proc is only about 2.5%, so that would be a free tick's worth of damage every 40 or so ticks of rip. That would be 400+(?) ticks of locked in higher crit rip before you got your energy's worth over using FB instead.

That's a pretty tall order based on crit alone. Seems like it's not even worth considering.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Meranannon » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:38 pm

Hi!

Well, i used this formulas, based on code post below (thx you ^^) , formulas have changed a bit

Code: Select all
function DF:GetBleedAbilityDamageCoefficient(docActive)
    -- various buffs that (de)buff all (physical) damage (Tiger's Fury, Savage Roar...)
    local _, _, _, _, _, _, damageCoeff = UnitDamage("player");
    local masteryCoeff = 1 + GetMastery() / 8 * 0.2504

    -- Dream of Cenarius
    local docCoeff = 1

      if docActive then
         docCoeff = 1.25
      end      

    local result = masteryCoeff * damageCoeff * docCoeff
    return result
end

function DF:GetRakePower(docActive)
   
      local base, posBuff, negBuff = UnitAttackPower("player")
       local AP = base+posBuff+negBuff
    local bleedCoeff = DF:GetBleedAbilityDamageCoefficient(docActive)
   
    local bleedBase = (99 + 0.30665 * AP)
    local rakePower = bleedCoeff * bleedBase
   
    return rakePower
   
end

function DF:GetTrashPower(docActive)
   
      local base, posBuff, negBuff = UnitAttackPower("player")
       local AP = base+posBuff+negBuff
    local bleedCoeff = DF:GetBleedAbilityDamageCoefficient(docActive)
   
    local bleedBase = (686 + 0.0936 * AP)
    local trashPower = bleedCoeff * bleedBase
   
    return trashPower
   
end

function DF:GetRipPower(docActive)
   
      local base, posBuff, negBuff = UnitAttackPower("player")
       local AP = base+posBuff+negBuff
    local bleedCoeff = DF:GetBleedAbilityDamageCoefficient(docActive)
    local CP = GetComboPoints("player")
   
    local bleedBase = (112.76+(320*CP))+((0.0484*AP)*CP)
    local ripPower = bleedCoeff * bleedBase
   
    return ripPower
   
end


For each rip,rake and trash, i save dot power when is applied with respective formula (call it "debuffPower").

For each cycle, i evaluate potential debuff power with respective formula (call it "currentPower") and I make a ratio to compare numbers.

ratio = ((currentPower-debuffPower)/debuffPower)
threshold = 0.12

if ratio < 0 then red dot
if ratio >= 0 and ratio < threshold then yellow dot
if ratio >= threshold then green dot

(Colors, threshold, text, font, etc etc configurable through options as always)

But i'm not theorycrafter, correct me if i'm wrong please :)

Thank you

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Gurrshael » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:17 am

Mendol wrote:@Gurrshael: I couldn't figure out what was behind your "GetMastery()" function so i'm using
Code: Select all
MasteryMultiplier = 1.2504 + (GetCombatRating(CR_MASTERY)/19175)


So what are the opinions of crit differences and re-applying?

It doesn't move a bunch (with all my buffs up--potion, windsong crit, trinket--I think it moves about from 33% to 41%) so the only time I can see reapplying making sense is on execute range rip.


GetMastery() is a wow API function:
http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetMastery

It returns the "Mastery" stat which (IIRC) isn't shown anywhere in the blizzard UI anymore. All players have a base 8 Mastery, which is included in the value returned by this function. When calculating the bleed damage % increase from Razor Claws, you can either use Mastery --> damage % increase conversion OR (Mastery Rating + Base Mastery [converted into mastery rating]) --> damage % increase conversion. I used the first one :-)

On the topic of reapplying dots on changed crit rate - is the crit chance of each single tick really based on the crit chance at the time of bleed application? I thought that while the bleed power is calculated at the time of application, crit chance is based on the actual crit chance at the time of the tick. At least that's how I would program it (which does not mean it is working this way).

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Meranannon » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:56 pm

I uploaded new version of DF (5.1.2) on curse.

Formulas seems good for rip,rake and thrash (match tooltip informations from game).

The "power dot" is now graphical or numerical. In numerical version, in addition of color change, you can see % ratio.

If you are curious, you can show estimated "power dot" in real time via the "infos" module.
i add this key string :

#ripPower - Replaced by total damage for a complète rip (16s)
#ripTickPower - Replaced by damage for one tick of rip

#rakePower
#rakeTickPower

#thrashPower
#thrashTickPower

you can copy/paste this string in field "Format infos" :
PowerAttack: #meleeAP (#maxAP)*Crit: #meleeCrit (#maxCrit)* *Rip power: #ripTickPower (#ripPower)*Rake power: #rakeTickPower (#rakePower)*Thrash power: #thrashTickPower (#thrashPower)

Don't forget to activate module ^^

I'm waiting for your feedback

thx !

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Mendol » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:59 am

Gurrshael wrote:GetMastery() is a wow API function:
http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetMastery

Aha. Thanks for that. I think I'll stick with the combat rating -> percentage method.
On the topic of reapplying dots on changed crit rate - is the crit chance of each single tick really based on the crit chance at the time of bleed application? I thought that while the bleed power is calculated at the time of application, crit chance is based on the actual crit chance at the time of the tick. At least that's how I would program it (which does not mean it is working this way).

I assume it's done at application. As far as I know all stats are locked in at DoT application. Haste is, for sure, as it dictates the number of ticks the DoT/heal will do.

Edit: I accidentally stated bleeds were affected by haste. No, just other dots.
Last edited by Mendol on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Viray » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:25 am

Are you sure? From what I've heard haste doesn't affect the number of ticks of bleeds.
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Re: rip/rake uptimes

Postby Mendol » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:28 am

Ack, sorry, I meant DoT, not bleeds

For Spriest, it most definitely is important.

Ferals, not used at all.

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