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Question about how to better my play

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Question about how to better my play

Postby Joeh » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:41 am

Hey all,

Lurking for awhile. First post.

Generally I stick to reading threads and not posting in them. I'm a big fan of the site and visit it daily.

As I sit now, I feel like I have come to a wall in my personal progression. I don't feel like I'm getting any better, and I'm not sure how to fix it. I belong to a small tight knit guild of real life friends, and we haven't pushed a lot of progression. We've been "raiding" for about three weeks now, two nights a week for 3 hours each. We've made some decent progress in places, but I'm afraid we're time constrained and we aren't getting the most out of our time. Part of this, I feel, is my personal ability and that, as stated, I feel like I am no longer getting any better.

Below this line will be our most recent WOL parse, from last night:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-mmhs51b0c8sq87e0/

For whatever reason, my character is not showing up on the armory, but it is updated on wow-heroes. US-Baelgun-Joeh

If anyone could take a few moments and review some of my information to give me some tips or point out a few things I could do to better myself for my guild and raid, I would be more than greatful. As I said, I feel like some of our failure this week is due to me not doing what I should be capable of doing.

I know this is a druid blog, but if anyone has any suggestions for any of my other raid members, please let me know so that I can pass it along and we can work more diligently.

Tonight we'll be working on the Dragons in BT, and if we get them down ( which we should, since we had all week to research the fight ) we'll move over to Maloriak. So any helpful tips for either of those fights would be great as well.

Thanks as always, for your great blog posts, and a good community in the forums.

~Joeh

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Arctagon » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:31 am

Welcome to the forum, Joeh.

I reviewed your WoL parse and your performance is good. Except for the bleed uptime on Halfus being somewhat low, you didn't die on any attempts you beat the boss, and you literally beat the crap out of every other raid member DPS wise. How this isn't good enough for you I don't know.

What exactly do you mean by 'I feel like some of our failure this week is due to me not doing what I should be capable of doing.'? This clearly can't be your DPS. Please, elaborate.

Your gear and enhancements also seem to be generally fine, although there are a few things I would like to point out.
- Switch the enchant on your cloak to +22 agility.
- The enchant on your gloves should be replaced by a strength enchant, optimally the one with +50. I am not entirely certain what its price is, but if you find it too expensive you could just temporarily go for +35 strength, as even that one beats your current mastery enchant.
- Do you know which out of haste and crit is better for you? You should reforge the weakest of them to the best stat available on any given piece.
- If crit is better than haste for you, you should not reforge crit to mastery, as you have done on your relic.
- Do you have the role as an interrupter? If so, get more hit and try to acquire the PvP gloves, since they reduce Skull Bash's energy cost by 10. I would also recommend putting points into Brutal Impact. If not, reforge hit into the best available stat. I can see the hit on your belt is untouched.

As far as your spec goes, I would definitely put a point in Survival Instincts. Raid content in Cataclysm is far different than it was in Wrath of the Lich King. The heavier raid damage (especially if you get hit by things you shouldn't get hit by) is really straining the healers, who have a significantly harder time healing as they need to preserve their mana. Anything that helps should be included. Other than that, your spec seems fine. Feel free to transfer the two points from Perseverance to Predatory Strikes for a slight DPS increase, when the raid content is more forgiving to your healers.

All of these are minor tweaks and don't do a significant difference, so don't feel you are doing much wrong, since you aren't. Other than that, I cannot understand what you want to get better in, so until you elaborate on that part, I cannot help you more than I already have.

Once again, welcome to the forum.

By the way, at first your character didn't seem to show up on the Armoury, but it appears to work now.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Joeh » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:26 pm

Thanks for your quick response Drezleith! Sorry I wasn't as fast back, work has my attention during the afternoon :P

I apologize for being unclear with my previous statements. My inquiry was to determine whether or not there was something more I could be doing. It isn't so much that it is, or is not, good enough for me, as it is that I always try and improve. I have seen a steady increase, each week, in both DPS and raid awareness. Last night, all seemed well to me, but I didn't notice myself trying anything new, or focusing on one individual part of play, as I have been for the last few weeks.

This may be because I am becoming more familiar with the encounters themselves, my positioning in them, and awareness of my rotation.

I haven't looked through all the parses for Feral druids on the encounters we've been doing, but I just assumed that my DPS was lower than it ought to be. Although, from your comments, it appears as though I am in line with where I should be for my gear level.

I tend to be harder on myself than I am on the rest of my raid members, since I know they rely on me to do my job well, and I enjoying knowing that I can rise to the expectation. Since I didn't see the same increase this week as I had in previous weeks I though there was either a technical problem, or I was forgetting something. I didn't see anything that stood out, so I thought I would let some people who know more about specifics take a look at it and see if they could spot anything I missed.

I'll take you up on your enchanting advice, and I will also look into the breakpoints for haste and crit so that I can derive which stat is better at the moment and reforge. I don't have a role as an interrupter, although I try my best to cover one when it becomes necessary, or it appears that our designated interrupter cannot get his off.

Thanks again for the welcome and all of your help! Please let me know if you have any more advice or see anything else you would change.

Also, if anyone else has any comments, feel free to post here or PM me!

Once again, Great blog and community! Looking forward to participating in some conversation here!

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Arctagon » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:15 pm

I just happened to be here shortly after you created the thread, I assume. :3

Yes, I thought it could be something about raid awareness or something along those lines, but since you didn't die once on the attempts you actually beat the boss, I assumed you knew what you were doing there as well.

The reason could also be that you have got gear upgrades the previous weeks and not this, or at least more than now (I'm not saying that this is a fact, since I don't know how your gear upgrades have been, just that it could be a reason). When you first start with something and really put your mind to it, you will quickly see large progress, but as times goes by the progress tends to flatten out, either because there isn't much more to learn (assuming raid awareness) or because you have come to a point where gear is holding you back from performing better.

I would definitely say that 19-20k DPS at your average item level in a 10-man raid is very good. If you want comparison, you could check out web sites such at State of DPS and RaidBots.

If you feel that your raids are not going that well, it is your raid members who should improve, at aleast as far as DPS goes, but I cannot come with any advice on that area since druid is pretty much the only class I have played as in end-game content.

You are very welcome. Don't hesitate to ask if there are other things you could need help with, as I enjoy helping others where I can. I'm looking forward in seeing more posts from you around.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:06 pm

Hey Joeh. Welcome to the forums.

First off Drezleith is right on in his assesment of your performance. You are doing very well for your progression and gear level. Great job!

Your character is showing up on the armory again and I had a chance to go through your logs so I jotted down some notes.

Stuff I noticed that was good:
1. Your geming is perfect for the new 4.06 patch. Correct selection of gems and getting the one socket bonus that matters in the helm.

2. Going though your logs it looks like you have used a pot every raid attempt. This is something that my guild struggles with getting people to do dispite a few sub 1% wipes.

3. Keeping Faerie Fire up on your targets. Seems like you are very atentive about getting this up on your targets. Were you tagging welps on Halfus?

Some tweaks I would suggest:
1. On Omnitron it looks like you opened with pounce. I would highly recommend to not do this. For 50 energy and 1 combo point (not sure if a crit will give you 2) it does very little damage for an opening move (about 20k for you). If you open with a feral charge (10 energy) and a Ravage (free) you can hit anyware from 17k-28k for much cheaper. If it crits you start off with almost full energy and 2 combo points. Very nice for getting rip up asap.

2. Also on Omnitron I highly recomend abusing feral charge/ravage when changing targets for the shields. First its a great gap closer and for the above mentioned reason its great for getting rip up very quickly on your new target.

3. As Drezleith mentioned your bleed up time on Halfus is a little on the low side. Even after the bleed nerf they still make up a HUGE portion of our dps so even with the buffed shred making some of our burst look really good, its always better to try and get a bleed up on the drakes before you go nuts on the shreds (excluding green welps of course).

4. For Halfus I would also pratice using feral charge when you are focused on him. Best time to run out is while you have both the bleeds up and are regening energy. Alaron has a few great posts on using feral charge to up your dps. Just remember on that fight for some reason you can only charge Halfus and not the drakes.

Gear/Stat suggestions:
1. I agree with Drezleith about the enchant suggestions. I would hold off doing the 50 strength enchant for now as it takes 2 Maelstrom Crystals which don't usually come cheap.

2. To follow up on why I would hold off on the strength to hands enchant. I recomend that you pick up the Tier gloves so you can get the 2p bonus (then enchant them with strength). The reason I would go with the gloves is while their stats are not as good as the gloves you have now the 2p bonus will override. They are also way cheaper then the chest which has even worse stats (which Atramades drops a great alturnitve).

3. While I would double check with Mew I have a feeling that at your gear level Crit is going to be slightly better then haste, and way better then hit. I would reforge haste to master and hit to mastery. If you already have mastery on the gear then I would reforge to crit.

This may seem like a lot of suggestions, but they are all just minor tweaks that will give you something to stive for while seeing positive returns. You are doing plenty right already. Best of luck on your future raiding and feel free to ask more questions.
-Tinder

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Arctagon » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:46 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:For 50 energy and 1 combo point (not sure if a crit will give you 2) it does very little damage for an opening move (about 20k for you).

It is currently not possible to be granted more than one combo point from Pounce, as it does not have an initial attack, and, as you know, ticks from bleeds does not grant us combo points whatsoever.

Tinderhoof wrote:Just remember on that fight for some reason you can only charge Halfus and not the drakes.

A smart trick to do here is to charge Halfus and go Ravage! the dragons.

Tinderhoof wrote:I recomend that you pick up the Tier gloves so you can get the 2p bonus (then enchant them with strength). The reason I would go with the gloves is while their stats are not as good as the gloves you have now the 2p bonus will override.

I haven't been into this particular matter yet, as I haven't begun raiding yet, but is it true that this is solely due to the fact that the shoulders aren't accessible before you reach Cho'gall? Since, honestly, I personally think the shoulders are better itemised than the gloves. This also doesn't make the upgrade useless, since the T11 gloves and the Twilight Highlands rep gloves have almost the exact same individual value.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:00 pm

Drezleith wrote:It is currently not possible to be granted more than one combo point from Pounce, as it does not have an initial attack, and, as you know, ticks from bleeds does not grant us combo points whatsoever.


Ya I couldn't remember if it did any opening damage or not. I always got it mixed up with the old school feral charge opener we used to have.

Drezleith wrote:I haven't been into this particular matter yet, as I haven't begun raiding yet, but is it true that this is solely due to the fact that the shoulders aren't accessible before you reach Cho'gall? Since, honestly, I personally think the shoulders are better itemised than the gloves. This also doesn't make the upgrade useless, since the T11 gloves and the Twilight Highlands rep gloves have almost the exact same individual value.


The shoulders are a much better option then the gloves for 2p. But in the end you will have to buy the gloves and chest if you want to get 4p (Joeh your helm is the right offset). Right now the gloves are more accessable till he can get to face stomping Cho'Gall. If you don't fell that Cho'Gall is in your very near future try and pick up the shoulders off of Omnitron. They are very well itemized and will serve you well until you are ready to go for 4p.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Arctagon » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:11 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Ya I couldn't remember if it did any opening damage or not. I always got it mixed up with the old school feral charge opener we used to have.

Seldom-used abilities are subject to be forgotten. It's easily done, so I don't blame you.

Tinderhoof wrote:The shoulders are a much better option then the gloves for 2p. But in the end you will have to buy the gloves and chest if you want to get 4p (Joeh your helm is the right offset). Right now the gloves are more accessable till he can get to face stomping Cho'Gall. If you don't fell that Cho'Gall is in your very near future try and pick up the shoulders off of Omnitron. They are very well itemized and will serve you well until you are ready to go for 4p.

Yes, that's what I thought. I only needed a confirmation. Thanks.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Joeh » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:21 am

Drezleith wrote:It is currently not possible to be granted more than one combo point from Pounce, as it does not have an initial attack, and, as you know, ticks from bleeds does not grant us combo points whatsoever.


I've switched to using ravage for an opener. I thought that pounce might add a bit of extra damage during an opening, but hadn't considered the use of energy compared to that of a shred. My previous opening was FC->Pounce->TF-> Rake -> Rip -> Ravage!

Drezleith wrote:The shoulders are a much better option then the gloves for 2p. But in the end you will have to buy the gloves and chest if you want to get 4p (Joeh your helm is the right offset). Right now the gloves are more accessable till he can get to face stomping Cho'Gall. If you don't fell that Cho'Gall is in your very near future try and pick up the shoulders off of Omnitron. They are very well itemized and will serve you well until you are ready to go for 4p.
[/quote]

Considering our "raiding" schedule, which is at this point, one night a week for 3 hours, maybe two nights if we're lucky enough. cho'gall may be a bit off. However, we have made decent progress in two weeks time (Magmaw/Omni & Halfus). I will probably shoot for Chest piece next, despite it being a marginal upgrade to the Assassin's Chestpiece (unless it gets hotfixed to have gem slots). 2pc will be my main focus for VP spending. After that I'm still debating on whether or not to look at a Fluid Death, or upgrading cloak/boots/rings first.

I'm alittle frustrated that we didn' get to raid last night. I guess that's the problem with having a guild of 11 people. If two of them don't show up, you don't raid unless you pug people. Oh well.

I've looked into getting my enchants updated, I went through and reforged to what I thought was the optimal stats, and I fixed my spec. My DPS was a bit higher last night during some trash clears we did with 7 people, but I couldn't tell if I was just getting lucky with the RNG, since I had no sustained parse to look at.

I'm really looking forward to tackling some more content, I just have to find a way to motive my small guild to get there. That, or I can recruit some more people I suppose.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Dabeasty » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:09 pm

In terms of what gear to get with VPs, my philosophy is that I have 3 ways to get gear 1) VPs 2) Gold 3) DKP (raid)

If I can buy something with gold I'll farm some gold and buy it, thus freeing up my dkp and VPs for the other items.

You can buy the VP boots for gold, can look good cloak (Dorys) and ring (Gilnean) for gold too.

I'd use VPs on Fluid Death (to go with a bought Unheeded) and Relic ...but that's me :-)

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Joeh » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:05 am

Dabeasty wrote:In terms of what gear to get with VPs, my philosophy is that I have 3 ways to get gear 1) VPs 2) Gold 3) DKP (raid)

If I can buy something with gold I'll farm some gold and buy it, thus freeing up my dkp and VPs for the other items.

You can buy the VP boots for gold, can look good cloak (Dorys) and ring (Gilnean) for gold too.

I'd use VPs on Fluid Death (to go with a bought Unheeded) and Relic ...but that's me :-)



I poked around the AH last night on my server. Seems as though most of the VP gear that is available is outrageously expensive, and for good measure I suppose.

My server isn't very advanced as far as progression goes, so most of the items that would be available via BOE VP rewards are upwards of 25,000g. In my opinion, it's not really worth it. I've had decent luck creating BOE LW items and selling them on the ah for between 5-7k, but I'd need to farm heroics for awhile to get enouch Chaos orbs to break 25,000 for a ring/cloak/boots. By the time I could do that, I can almost just buy them with VP from raiding anyway.

I'll keep an eye out, maybe I can work a deal with someone.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'll keep my eyes on the Logs and keep working on the things you all said and hopefully I can make some more progress, and in turn, help my guild get further.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby shinryu » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:59 pm

Mmm, don't take this the wrong way since I obviously don't know the situation, but there's only so much you can do to help your guild progress by being as good as you can be...it could be other people aren't picking up the slack or maybe just aren't that good in the game that need to be cut for someone else.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:59 pm

shinryu wrote:Mmm, don't take this the wrong way since I obviously don't know the situation, but there's only so much you can do to help your guild progress by being as good as you can be...it could be other people aren't picking up the slack or maybe just aren't that good in the game that need to be cut for someone else.


This statement is true. But........ don't be "that guy(not you Shin)". The one that dosen't pot, the one that dosen't flask, or the one that uses inferior food becouse someone else provided it and it was free. Take pride in your role. Maybe others will catch up. Maybe you will get recruted to a guild moveing along at a faster rate. As for me I want to be the goto guy. Some fights i top charts. Others I am bottom but i make sure everytime i am doing EVERYTHING i can and doing it right. On Halfus and Nef i sacrafice my own DPS for interupts. Are ferals the best interupters....no but someone has to do it and they have to be dependable. I have a trinket and PVP gloves for these 2 fights only. I have a full set of tank gear for those few times it has come up. I have Flasks for tank and Cat as well as my own food.

Be the goto guy.
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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Joeh » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:08 am

Sylvaneart wrote:
shinryu wrote:Mmm, don't take this the wrong way since I obviously don't know the situation, but there's only so much you can do to help your guild progress by being as good as you can be...it could be other people aren't picking up the slack or maybe just aren't that good in the game that need to be cut for someone else.


This statement is true. But........ don't be "that guy(not you Shin)". The one that dosen't pot, the one that dosen't flask, or the one that uses inferior food becouse someone else provided it and it was free. Take pride in your role. Maybe others will catch up. Maybe you will get recruted to a guild moveing along at a faster rate. As for me I want to be the goto guy. Some fights i top charts. Others I am bottom but i make sure everytime i am doing EVERYTHING i can and doing it right. On Halfus and Nef i sacrafice my own DPS for interupts. Are ferals the best interupters....no but someone has to do it and they have to be dependable. I have a trinket and PVP gloves for these 2 fights only. I have a full set of tank gear for those few times it has come up. I have Flasks for tank and Cat as well as my own food.

Be the goto guy.



I agree with both points. I used to raid with a stable progression guild, that competed for server firsts, but due to graduating and entering the real world, I no longer had the amount of time I did before. So, I decided I'd take a shorter approach to it and I find that it's starting to bite me a bit.

I don't mind being the go to guy for things, it's what I'm used to, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to motivate people to show up to raids, even on a two night a week schedule. At 4/12, everyone seems to be fine wtih farming those 4 bosses and just letting the rest of the timer go to waste. Nobody wants to try Maloriak because they're worried it will be too hard. Every week we do two bosses in each zone, then we're done.

I can only take us so far, as far as DPS is concerned. Our tanks seem to want to go more, and we've got at least one healer who wants to continue, but we can't do much except clear trash with 5.

I appreciate everyone's comments on this thread. We had another successful 4/12 raid last night. I parsed 99.9% towards the ratings on omnitron, and was above 95% on magmaw, so you all have helped me improve drastically. I'm looking forward to cracking those rankings and helping push through some of our early troubles.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Sylvaneart » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:22 am

It is time to guild shop. I know it can be hard and you don't want to abandon those that like you are trying there hardest. If you can't recrute enough to raid it is time to app other places. My guild raids 3 nights a week for 3 hours a shot and we are 12/12 with 1 HC. We are laid back for the most part but raid time is serious time. We don't push for world ranks but we do push for server 1sts. There are others like this out there and it might be time to bite the bullet. Before transfering to another server i suggest you make an alt there and do a /who <guildname> during there advertised raid times and see if they are acctually raiding. If you decide to stay where you are then goodluck. Push recruitment and keep having fun over all else.
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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby shinryu » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:07 am

Yeah, you should definitely be able to clear more than just 4 bosses, it's either time to start looking for another one as the above guy suggested, or really push your other members to try more. For example, only Atramedes, Chimaeron, and Nefarian are difficult to really learn in BWD due to some rather unorthodox mechanics, Maloriak is pretty easy. Ascendant Council in BoT is even a joke now providing you dps the 4 of them down properly, leaving Cho'Gall as the only fight really needing something to learn, and it's mainly managing corruption and adds.

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Joeh » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:08 am

FWIW, I took a lot of the advice in this thread and this week, managed to crack the top 250 in rankings on Halfus. I know its an inflated fight, and it's not much to brag about, but hopefully soon I'll be closer on the other fights.

We had a few good attempts on the dragons, but we're still having positional problems during phase changes.

Here's a link to the parse:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-0 ... 847&e=4135

Thanks again for all your help!

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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Sylvaneart » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:47 am

Glad we could help
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Re: Question about how to better my play

Postby Goodmongo » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:22 pm

My advice is go shadow priest. One of the easiest rotations ever and top dps this expansion. That will imporve your play.

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