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Hit/Expertise Caps Help

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Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Morghan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:33 pm

I know it's probably been touched on several times in the past. But everything I read states to blow every bit of hit/expertise and put it into mastery as our best reforged stat, but my mind can't work that way.

How bad is the miss/dodge of the enemies when you do this, I guess I'm just used to a flow of my rotation, and not missing much.

Here is my armory link to see how I reforged/gemmed (Currently running at about 5.5% hit / 19/26 expertise):

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Aggramar/morghan/advanced


I know EJ, Askmrrobot, and RAWR are all telling me not to concentrate too highly on my hit/expertise cap. So am I sacrificing a ton of DPS loss for a smoother rotation and being stupid, or is the DPS loss only 500-1000 which I can live with for my sanity. I do about 13000 DPS on a heroic target dummy in SW self buffed with MoTW, no flask or food buff.
Last edited by Morghan on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps

Postby Sylvaneart » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:18 pm

Hey Morg,
I see this was your 1st post so welcome. From what i can see your DPS is rightone for your gear and buffs. Right on as in your doing what that setup allows. The math dosn't lie is one thing to say but crafters have also done the testing on everything and it dosn't lie either. Capping hit/exp will make your rotation flawless and easy to do but it will lose DPS. I suggest using a buff/debuff timer to help you see when you miss to make sure you move through the priority correctly. I would also make the following changes to your gear.


Spec:
Your missing a point in Predatory strikes. The math proves that using FC on CD and Ravaging from the proc is a DPS increase so why not increase its crit chance?

Gear:
Head - Don't reforge
Neck - Haste ->crit
Shoulders - Hit -> Mastery
Cloak - Hit ->Mastery
Chest - Don't reforge
Wrist - Don't reforge(change enchant to AGI)
Hands - Haste -> Mastery (Enchant with 1 of the top 2 strengths)
Belt - Hit-> Crit
Legs - Don't reforge (Tier legs go ahead and get big leg enchant)
Feet - Haste -> Crit
Ring1 - Hit -> Crit
Ring2 - Haste -> Crit
Weapon - Don't reforge
Relic - Hit -> Mastery

Gems Get AGI for everything except the one you have in helm now.

These changes will net you 1000DPS. But that can be misleading. When you start adding in other buffs that you would get in a raid the numbers get bigger increases.
25 man standard raid buffs yourway = 18044
25 man standard raid buffs the tested way = 19902

You can play the cat the way you are now of course but you are gimping your DPS.
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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Morghan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:24 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. I've been a long time reader, but never felt the urge to signup on the forum until today. I should have mentioned I'm in a small 10-man normal raiding guild, who raids 2 nights/6 hours a week. I'm currently topping the charts in the guild which is very misleading i find while reading all the threads about how Ferals are so far behind the other classes. Although after the past few weeks and having some of our locks/hunters gear up a bit they are starting to gain and catch up with gear so I need to pull up my socks a bit.

Unfortunately, I've been stuck in tank land with one of our main tanks away this month for work, so since I got a lot of the gear I haven't had a chance to really DPS in a raid environment.

I also tend to be the "other" interreupter on Arcanotron with the tank in that fight seeing as we have no shamans raiding, and few rogues, so once 4.1 hits that won't interfere but should i try to keep hit at a decent level for that reason now?

EDIT: And for the one point in predatory strikes, I would assume the best non DPS talent to take the point from would be "Nuturing Instinct"

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Fate » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:00 pm

Primal Madness would be my suggestion - unless you're messing with /cancelaura, it's barely worth any DPS.

(Also, I hear you about ferals topping guild DPS charts (ours reads: feral, feral, combat, mage-mage-hunter), but do note that we get our best-in-tier weapon in one of the first bosses most guilds will down, which helps.)

As to the original question, yes, it's costing DPS to miss, but you should work out how far off 'perfect play' those misses are throwing you (the sims all assume you're going to react perfectly to those misses, of course), and that tells you what it's costing you for that quality-of-life choice. And yeah, interrupts that miss don't work. That might be quite important to your raid... (Cats are reportedly a lousy choice of interruptor, since SB is a delayed interrupt, and it costs them more DPS than anyone else - but if other available players aren't pressing the button reliably, that's a bigger concern).

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Sylvaneart » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:16 pm

You bring up a good point Morg. Most ferals will find that they top charts early in this raid tier. When you look at state of DPS and such everyone is top geared and ferals simply don't scale well. Your #1 RSV is weapon damage and like Fate said you got your BiS (pre-heroic) on the 1st boss most guilds down. This is the same for HM raids as most guilds will down Halfus 1st thus giving you a chance at your BiS end game weapon. I too topped charts early in the tier and now have fallen back. I was freaking out and going over logs. Why am i getting worse? I wasn't. My DPS was going up but not at the rate of other classes. If you are stuck on interupt duty best practice is to get some Hit trinkets like Key to the Endless Chamber. Only use these on interupt fights. 4.1 removes miss from the interupt but that is still far enough out you shouldn't plan for it. Also remember the adds on Nef that you interupt are lvl 85 so you wont need as much Hit.
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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:18 pm

Take a point out of Furor and use that for Predatory Strikes. That won't impact kitty dps and (personally) I like having two points in Nuturing Instinct.

Simple rules for gearing:

Always gem for agi unless the socket bonus is 14 agi or more (for 1 gem). Your boot gem is incorrect for example.

Always reforge so that every piece has mastery on it. Use whatever secondary stat is the highest if you are reforging to mastery.

In general haste and crit are about equal in value and slightly higher than hit/expertise. However, the stats are all close enough that the relative rankings do change as you reforge. Since you are in a 10 man guild I recommend (at least until the 4.1 patch comes out) that you reforge to the hit cap (8%) so you can interrupt as needed. On a patchwork fight the estimated dps loss is probably only about 50dps out of around 20k. You won't notice it. In general haste and crit seem to provide the most value when they are close together. Don't reforge towards one or the other (this changed in 4.06 - prior to that crit was clearly better than haste).

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby felhoof » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:40 pm

For a raiding cat Nurturing Instincts should be considered mandatory. The difference between a NI-fueled tranquility and a non-NI fueled tranquility is about 2x the healing. There are enough encounters where tranquility is a huge boon that you should consider this as important as any DPS gain you could possibly add.

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Morghan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:44 pm

I'm hoping with the no Firelands in 4.1 and moved to 4.2 that 4.1 in fact is closer than anticipated so the hit issue on SB is gone sooner rather than later.


I think I might make the change to 2/3 Furor and keep my extra kitty heals i usually am sitting in cat form before a pull and the only time I would be out of it would be the odd BR during a fight, and if we have a tree or soon enough a DK I won't worry about it then either.


Thanks for the input guys, it's nice to be able to discuss these things with someone, I'm the sole Feral DPS in my guild that's an active raider anyway, most alts try it and get mad and go Boomkin, lol. I'll try the reforge anyway for fun and see how well it pans out with 5 mins on the dummy before and after and try to post those numbers up here to let you know how it worked out. Also I'll throw in the FC>Ravages since there is all the time with 5 combo points and nothing to do but Shred anyway.

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby felhoof » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:28 pm

I think I might make the change to 2/3 Furor and keep my extra kitty heals i usually am sitting in cat form before a pull and the only time I would be out of it would be the odd BR during a fight, and if we have a tree or soon enough a DK I won't worry about it then either.
To be completely clear: the reason you get NI - the only reason, really - is to boost tranquility by 4000 spellpower or so. That's it. It's that tranquility. It's a huge boost to raid healing once every fight. It is as valuable if not more valuable than brez at this point, especially since it is not limited to 1/3 per group.

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:24 pm

You also get 20% more healing while in cat form - so it helps keep you alive and preserve healer mana.

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Re: Hit/Expertise Caps Help

Postby Morghan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:46 am

Ok, made the spec changes: (1 point in Furor tossed into Predatory Strikes)

Changes the gem in my boots to 40 Agi, tossed the BIG leg chant on my Tier 11 pants, didnt get the agi chant on gloves, damn the only one on AH was like 4k gold.


Before changes self buffed with MoTW, no food buff or flasks my DPS was 13256 after a full 5 mins (Usually time it on duration of my FFF)

After changes (which i think i messed up, didnt unforge some of my chest items/etc to a no reforged format) I pulled about 13750 with same buffs.

For now until 4.1 hits I went and reforged into hit since I can't rely on other Interrupters, nor does our RL want to because it usually ends in fail. Once the skull bash change happens I plan on going into full reforge mode and giving it a shot again.

Thanks for all your awesome suggestions yesterday, the FC>Ravage change in my rotation alone seemed to pop me up a good 750-1000 DPS it seems on dummy from last time I tested myself.

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